Engine Reliability - E/F vs C

[glafaille]

I am knee deep in looking for a suitable Mooney C/E/F to be my first aircraft purchase.  I am a professional pilot so not new to aviation, but certainly new to aircraft ownership and Mooney airplanes.

I know that this topic has been discussed in great detail before, and I have spent many hours reading all the threads related to the differences between the IO360 and the O360.  Based on my research here and on other websites I came to the INITIAL conclusion that there was little NET monetary difference between the 2 engines after all costs and fuel burn differences were considered (operational differences aside).

However, over the past couple of weeks I have reviewed the logbooks of 2 C models, 2 E models and one F model.  ALL of the E and F models have a history of multiple engine problems, early overhauls, early engine replacements and cylinder replacements.  Many of the problems happened early on in 1960's and 1970's but a few are recent.  The C model engines look much better with few problems.

I realize that these engines may have had teething issues early on, but I am unsure whether or not Lycoming has remedied the problem.  Perhaps there are/were Service Bulletins performed at overhaul that increased reliability making the issue moot for recently overhauled engines.

Any motorheads out there that would be kind enough to enlighten me about this?  What should I look for when reviewing engine logs to minimize the odds of problems?

I found a candidate aircraft with less than 100 hours on an A & P overhaul of one engine that experienced a problem within 500 hours or so of a previous overhaul.  I like the aircraft but I'm not feeling the "positive engine vibes".  Maybe I'm being too picky?

Thank you.

[carusoam]

All three are solid choices.  Each one costs more as it is sliding up the scale is desirability.  Fuel injection, 10% more HP or Leg room for back seaters....

Pick a good example of one and then have it inspected (PPI) prior to purchase.

50 year old planes have probably gotten over teething issues.  Planes that have set outside without running have there own challenges...

which one fits your type of flying (aka mission).

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Go for the one in the best mechanical condition. Judge as well as you can, have a friendly A&P review the top candidates. Negotiate and schedule an Inspection with someone who knows Mooneys well.

Personally, I love my C. My wife even likes it, more as a timesaver and lifestyle enhancer than as a way to fly. I like both! 

[TTaylor]

Be picky, the person that buys it from you will be.  That said, I second Carusoam's recommendation to let the mission drive the choice.   If you are flying with only two people or little people (or children) in the back seat then the C/E will do well.  If you are hauling any adults in the back seat you will want a F/G.  The C/G vs. E/F choice is driven by need to fly higher, higher density altitude take-offs and your desire to be able to lean the plane.  The prices are slightly higher for each step up but in the long run the overall costs will be pretty similar.  I flew a C for many years but really love the F for the extra power and legroom.  In the mountain west the E/F are the way to go.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Your premise appears to be that the injected engine has "more issues" based on three or four planes that you reviewed.  A pretty small sample.  The O360 and IO360 engines have both been proven, by time, to be two of the most reliable engines in GA.  It all depends on each specific airframe and engine that has been discussed adnauseum within threads.  All about who did engine, when and how often it was flown and how to determine engine condition.  That said, they are ticking timebombs of cash that generally provide ample warning as to an upcoming "event".  

Choose wisely.

I would choose an F that has been modded, like the one in another recent thread.  I could NOT get into that low time bird when I bought my E 14+years ago.  Good luck with your search.

[neilpilot]

Agree that you should decide on C/E/F based on overall factors (price, maintenance history, mods).  I owned an E for 23 years, have had my C for 3.  I really can't say that I miss those few extra horses.  Even though I had a good starting technique down pat, I don't miss starting the IO360.  A fuel injection issue in my E eventually resulted in an off-field landing (that's why I have the C now).  

Unless something has recently changed, you should note that the cylinder & overhaul cost for the IO360 will be significantly more since Lycoming is the only game in town for new cylinders.

[carl]

i think owning an airplane is only reasonable because you like airplane maintenance.

all of them are maintenance intensive.

it is just a crapshoot when engine esproblems happens .

but i will say everyone is wrong in there opinions of changing oil . 10 hours . 

carl 

 

[Shadrach]

I prefer the injected models for the following reasons:

1) more power setting options

2) better fuel/air distribution

2) better high altitude performance

3) cooler CHTs in climb and cruise

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

36 minutes ago, carl said:

...but i will say everyone is wrong in there opinions of changing oil . 10 hours . 

carl 

???

 

[carl]

10 hour oil changes are what im doing ..

 i know everyone thinks its overkill. 

but even camguard says 10 hour oil is corrosive . 

it contains micro abrasives that wear away at the engine 

_________________________________

i like the io 360 because of no carb ice concerns . 

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, carl said:

10 hour oil changes are what im doing ..

 i know everyone thinks its overkill. 

but even camguard says 10 hour oil is corrosive . 

it contains micro abrasives that wear away at the engine 

_________________________________

i like the io 360 because of no carb ice concerns . 

How many hours do you fly per year? Changing oil every month?

[carl]

 

Bob

you are right there ,i do admit im a low hour flyer . so that is say every 3 months 

 so the expense is not a big deal 

but there should be a good filter that cleans out this micro abrasives .

there isnt . 

 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, carl said:

 

Bob

you are right there ,i do admit im a low hour flyer . so that is say every 3 months 

 so the expense is not a big deal 

but there should be a good filter that cleans out this micro abrasives .

there isnt . 

 

I think there's a general recommendation to change oil every 3 months even in if the hours flown or low. 25 hours or 3 months is a pretty conservative rule. I flew 7+ hours last Thurs/Fri. after just completing the annual on Wed. I am not ready to change the oil next week!

[Hank]

I flew 11.5 hours between 19-29 November. My oil change isn't due for a while yet.

[Andy95W]

To get back to the original thread topic of engine reliability between the O-360 and IO-360, both engines are very reliable, and of course each engine is its own unique individual. 

My experience is that the Lycoming O-360 carbureted engine is one of the most bullet proof engines around, and generally forgiving if it is abused (within limits, of course).  Perhaps this is due to slightly lower power output (45 HP per cylinder vs. 50).  The IO-360 is a bit more temperamental and maintenance intensive, and the cylinders are only available from Lycoming, no aftermarket cylinders exist.

-It is hard to beat the reliability and simplicity of a carbureted engine- less maintenance and never a hot start issue.

-It is hard to beat the efficiency of the fuel injected engine, especially Lean of Peak.

-The M20E is quickest, but the M20C is close and generally a lot cheaper to acquire and maintain.

As to carburetor icing- the carb on a Lycoming is bolted directly to the hot oil pan.  Carburetor ice is possible, of course, but not nearly as likely as on a Continental, where the carb is out in mid-air.  Fear of carburetor ice should not factor into the equation.

[ArtVandelay]

10 hour oil changes are what im doing ..

 i know everyone thinks its overkill. 

but even camguard says 10 hour oil is corrosive . 

it contains micro abrasives that wear away at the engine 

_________________________________

i like the io 360 because of no carb ice concerns . 

I would have to change my oil 4 times when I did my cross country trip last year, in a two week period. Everything I've read says engines don't wear out, they corrode out from inactivity.

[Glenn]

Another item that may be worth considering, depending on your planned use of the airplane is range.  The F/G models carry 12 gallons more fuel (64 vs. 52).   

[rbridges]

I don't think you can go wrong with either, but from what I've gathered over the years, this is what comes to mind.

E/F has more expensive cylinders vs. C model.

E model is probably 5-10 knots faster than C model.

can run lean of peak with E/F, no issues with carb ice

C model is easier to start, including hot starts

I'm sure there are a thousand other things, but this is what stood out to me.

[Shadrach]

I have started many O and IO 4cyl Lycomings. Neither is hard to start hot or cold, but individual engines of either breed can be quirky at times. Both engines require fuel and air to be mixed in an acceptable ratio; both O and IO fuel systems are more than capable of delivering that F/A ratio to the cylinders. There is no argument that injection is more precise and that is the reason that I prefer it.

The biggest issue for me with operating a carbureted XC aircraft is that one of my go to flight regimes would be eliminated. I like to stay low when west bound on windy days, terrain and turbulence permitting.  Making 140kts on a cold day into a moderate headwind down low while burning ~10gph WOTLOP beats the heck out of climbing to 4500 or 6500 to make 120kts. I could run sort of similarly in a carbed engine but I'd have to burn significantly more gas with higher CHTs while going slower. 

I could certainly live with a carbed airplane (I have in the past) but it is really nice to be able to let the engine breath as much air as it can take and regulate temps with mixture...at any altitude.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Shadrach

[steingar]

I wanted an E but had to settle for a C due to the pool of aircraft available at the time.  i certainly wound't be balked from an E just due to the fuel injection and increased horsepower.  Were there endemic problems with the engines we'd all know by now.

[StinkBug]

16 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I would have to change my oil 4 times when I did my cross country trip last year, in a two week period. Everything I've read says engines don't wear out, they corrode out from inactivity.

I would have had to do 6 oil changes in the same time this summer. 10 hours is ridiculous, do you change the oil in your car every 500 miles too? Cause it's basically the same thing.

[ryoder]

On December 9, 2015 at 7:59 PM, carl said:

i think owning an airplane is only reasonable because you like airplane maintenance.

all of them are maintenance intensive.

it is just a crapshoot when engine esproblems happens .

but i will say everyone is wrong in there opinions of changing oil . 10 hours . 

carl 

 

I agree.  I am enjoying bringing my C to a more stable, useful, and beautiful condition.  It is costing me time, patience and money but I enjoy the continuous improvement.  I also like taking advantage of special offers and discounts thst take some patience to capitalize on.

[rbridges]

22 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I agree.  I am enjoying bringing my C to a more stable, useful, and beautiful condition.  It is costing me time, patience and money but I enjoy the continuous improvement.  I also like taking advantage of special offers and discounts thst take some patience to capitalize on.

I have to admit that you've put a lot of money and sweat equity into your plane.  Definitely nice to see.

[Yetti]

There are a couple of ADs about the engines around the 500 mark.   Basically lack of lube for the valve guide.  weather they coke or not is depending on how the engine is run. 

http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine1.htm

 

 

 

[carl]

On 12/9/2015 at 6:00 PM, StinkBug said:

I would have had to do 6 oil changes in the same time this summer. 10 hours is ridiculous, do you change the oil in your car every 500 miles too? Cause it's basically the same thing.

I never change the oil in my car. It is a PoS, 

But if I did I would put my old airplane oil in the car, its like brand new.