Stupid Pilot Tricks

[Marauder]

I thought I had seen enough stupid pilot tricks over the years that it was unlikely I would see any more. Well, wasn't to be. I went out to shoot some approaches this afternoon and after putting the plane away, I see a nice C model fly in. It looks like he is there for fuel. By the time I get to the pumps he has already announced his departure. Since like the rest of you, I love watching Mooneys take off. I watch him depart.

So there he goes down the runway and literally when he is no more than a foot off of the ground he retracts the gear! He settles about half the distance to the runway and because he was so low, he kicked up a bunch of dust off of the asphalt. I didn't hear any metal but it was close! I had my handheld with me and told him that it "was close". Didn't hear anything back from him nor did he make any more radio calls. Amazing!

[N5756v]

Some people are not bright , kick dust off asphalt had to have been inches 

[Shadrach]

Was it red? Perhaps Piper Painter was in your neck of the woods... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2jxlupGO_E

Most of us who fly manual gear birds tuck the gear up as son as practicable after establishing positive rate. The gear seems as though it was designed to be be hand retracted below 80mph. Those of you with a switch can't tell the difference in load, but I assure you it's significant. What I find most surprising was that he "settled in"; yesterday was a beautiful and crisp day. Doesn't seem like a day for hogging asphalt. Perhaps he was intentionally buzzing the runway? Was the take off followed by the obligatory zoom climb?

In my experience (I've walked and run a lot of runways at small fields) runways are rarely dusty except for in desert and drought climates. Dusty runway in DE? This time of year? I'd walk out and look for scares in the asphalt. There's not much dust to be found anywhere in the NE right now. 

[Mooney20]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Most of us who fly manual gear birds tuck the gear up as son as practicable after establishing positive rate. The gear seems as though it was designed to be be hand retracted below 80mph

After takeoff, establish a pitch attitude that maintains 80 mph and retract the gear when landing on the remaining runway is no longer an option.

The pilot described in the beginning post will experience a prop strike sooner or later.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Mooney20 said:

After takeoff, establish a pitch attitude that maintains 80 mph and retract the gear when landing on the remaining runway is no longer an option.

This has long been a mantra for many instructors, but I don't see the point in flying a half mile, barely climbing, "for safety in case of an engine failure." Why is it safer for your engine to die close to the ground? My departures are always, rotate, verify positive rate, gear up and pitch for Vx. The sooner I'm at 1000' agl, the safer I am, because altitude gives options. If something happens 40 seconds after I firewall the throttle for departure, I'd much rather be 800' agl past the end of the runway than 250-300' agl.

It's not like it takes a long time to raise the gear, nor does Mooney gear create large amounts of extra drag while cycling (Bonanzas do the latter, while Cessna retracts do both). This makes me think the whole "leave the gear down on takeoff as long as possible" mantra  is a one-size-fits-most approach. I haven't messed with this here ithingy enough to crop and highlight, but here's the page from my Owners Manual discussing the takeoff and raising gear. Note the verbiage; there's no mention of waiting for usable runway to disappear.

On the other hand, this guy was obviously premature with his retraction. Wonder if he was hot dogging to impress a passenger? I'm generally at least 15-20' agl when I reach for the switch, and if it's unsettled outside I wait to verify I'm climbing well and not bouncing or trying to settle first.

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, Mooney20 said:

After takeoff, establish a pitch attitude that maintains 80 mph and retract the gear when landing on the remaining runway is no longer an option.

The pilot described in the beginning post will experience a prop strike sooner or later.

80mph is below Vx in my bird. I'm not going to hang my plane on the prop with the gear down until I level for cruise. :-) That would be considerably more dangerous in the event of an engine failure. My gear can be dropped in under a second if  needed. 

[midlifeflyer]

10 minutes ago, Mooney20 said:

After takeoff, establish a pitch attitude that maintains 80 mph and retract the gear when landing on the remaining runway is no longer an option.

 

46 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Most of us who fly manual gear birds tuck the gear up as son as practicable after establishing positive rate. . 

There really isn't a conflict between these two posts. The key is "as soon as practicable."

I tend to be a "no remaining runway" guy, But when giving training I've seen pilots thinking there is more than there is and delaying retraction more than necessary.  Takeoff from a very long runway, following a "no remaining runway mantra" can also mean unnecessarily late gear retraction.

[Marauder]

Was it red? Perhaps Piper Painter was in your neck of the woods... 

Most of us who fly manual gear birds tuck the gear up as son as practicable after establishing positive rate. The gear seems as though it was designed to be be hand retracted below 80mph. Those of you with a switch can't tell the difference in load, but I assure you it's significant. What I find most surprising was that he "settled in"; yesterday was a beautiful and crisp day. Doesn't seem like a day for hogging asphalt. Perhaps he was intentionally buzzing the runway? Was the take off followed by the obligatory zoom climb?

In my experience (I've walked and run a lot of runways at small fields) runways are rarely dusty except for in desert and drought climates. Dusty runway in DE? This time of year? I'd walk out and look for scares in the asphalt. There's not much dust to be found anywhere in the NE right now. 

No, not that red fellow.

I now know who this guy is. New owner based at an airport near me. Not sure what he was trying to do, but I have videotaped dozens of Mooney take-offs from my airport and have never seen anyone in a Mooney do this.

When I saw it, I thought he had a gear collapse. Our runway isn't the smoothest and it looked like the gear folded and he dropped 6" inches or so.

I was close enough that I would have heard a metallic sound but worthwhile looking at the runway. Our runway is scheduled for replacement next year and it has been patched a number of times. There are some nooks and crannies where dirt can hide.

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[Marauder]

And BTW, this guy was so low that it makes the video of Piper Painter look like he is flying in the flight levels

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[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

 

There really isn't a conflict between these two posts. The key is "as soon as practicable."

I tend to be a "no remaining runway" guy, But when giving training I've seen pilots thinking there is more than there is and delaying retraction more than necessary.  Takeoff from a very long runway, following a "no remaining runway mantra" can also mean unnecessarily late gear retraction.

Not conflict, maybe just a difference of opinion on the "when landing on the runway is not an option".  I think 80MPH should merely be a place where I make sure my gear is up and locked on my way to climb speed.  Retraction at climb speed requires considerably more effort. I think a lot of new pilots of vintage Mooneys struggle with the gear because they try to actuate it at the wrong speed.  

Pitching for 80mph (assuming standard day) even with the airplane in take-off configuration would require a pretty steep angle, poor cooling, poor visibility.

I've never understood the "no remaining runway" stance. I think that this notion is strong in the Beech community because I see all manner of Beech retractables waiting to retract their gear until they reach the departure threshold (which puts them at 800-1000ft). I've always wondered what a 1000ft of remaining runway wil do for them when they're 600ft above it in climb configuration and attitude.

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Mooney20 said:

After takeoff, establish a pitch attitude that maintains 80 mph and retract the gear when landing on the remaining runway is no longer an option.

The pilot described in the beginning post will experience a prop strike sooner or later.

I'm not as close to the runway as the OP described, but I'd never be able to get the gear up without nosing over if I waited.  I usually tuck the gear when I'm ~50-100 ft off the ground.  It's unbelievable how heavy that Johnson bar get once you start building speed.

[Hank]

I have very few outside pictures of myself taking off, but my gear is typically tucked away by treetop height.

[201er]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Our runway is scheduled for replacement next year and it has been patched a number of times. There are some nooks and crannies where dirt can hide.

It's about time!

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Marauder said: Our runway is scheduled for replacement next year and it has been patched a number of times. There are some nooks and crannies where dirt can hide.

It's about time!

I told them that 201er wasn't coming back unless they did.

[ryoder]

The manual gear begs to be retracted soon.  I think this guy just did it way too soon.  I retract mine pretty early and probably need to wait it out a bit more in case I lose lift.  Today was gusty and I waited longer to rotate, stayed in ground effect a bit, then kept the gear down until I had a nice stabilized climb trimmed out.

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

  It's unbelievable how heavy that Johnson bar get once you start building speed.

The electric motor in the C has the same loads that the manual Mooney gear.  I suspect retracting the electric gear at lower airspeeds prolongs the life of that precious gear train.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I've never understood the "no remaining runway" stance. I think that this notion is strong in the Beech community because I see all manner of Beech retractables waiting to retract their gear until they reach the departure threshold (which puts them at 800-1000ft). I've always wondered what a 1000ft of remaining runway wil do for them when they're 600ft above it in climb configuration and attitude.

I haven't seen what you have in in the Bonanza pilots I've flown with when compared with any others.

But you are giving a perfect example of what I was saying.  The issue is really the phrase "no runway remaining" being taught or learned way to literally by some  instructors and pilots. It really means "no runway remaining that is available for to land on in the case of a problem."  That 1000 ft of runway from 600 AGL you mention will, of course, do absolutely nothing. To stick with the Bonanza, Vy at max gross for an normally aspirated A36 is 100 KTS. That's covered in what, about 3 seconds? And would require a 12,000 FPM descent rate to land on it even assuming assuming you can even slow down from 100 KTS to an acceptable landing speed?

[gsxrpilot]

I learned to fly from a very high time CFI, Gold Seal, more than 20K hours of instruction time logged. He gave me the complex endorsement in his Comanche 250. He told me then that most all CFI's teach "no useable runway", but then made the case for altitude as the best safety factor. When he checked me out in the Mooney a couple of years ago his advise was to raise the gear ASAP with positive climb. Get the altitude, never mind the runway.

This little video shows my gear retraction at 1:34 in.

[Mooney20]

My manual gear Mooney was the first retractable in which I was checked out PIC. I flew it 17 years and a little over 2,000 tach hours.  From grass strips to 12,000' international airport runways, I kept the gear down until I could no longer land on the remaining runway.  It's what all pilot instruction manuals recommended at the time and it's the way I was taught.  I've done same in every single-engine retractable I've ever flown.

I guess while I'm at it, I'll really roll a grenade in a few tents here, but I flew piston twins exactly the same way.  A mentor I really respected once told me, "If you lose an engine right after takeoff in a piston twin anywhere near gross weight, you'll fly 'til you come to a two story house.  Keep your gear down until you're out of runway."

And it's true.  I used to fly B58 Barons full of overweight and overworked executives.  We were always at or near gross weight on takeoff.  One time on a layover, I got out the performance charts and very precisely calculated what would be the outcome if I sucked the gear right after liftoff at gross weight and then an engine-out occurred and I elected to continue.  It was pretty sobering.  According to the charts, by the time the airplane reached 500' AGL, it would be FIVE MILES down range.  That is with wings level climbing straight ahead!  The Baron has typical engine-out rate-of-climb performance for the piston twin breed.  The rate of climb seems reasonable; what kills you is the gradient of climb with an engine out.

Here's a link to a twin-at-gross accident well known in the early to mid-80s where the pilot should have just closed the throttles and landed straight ahead.  It was written about in all the magazines of the day:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR8008.pdf

 

[201er]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I learned to fly from a very high time CFI, Gold Seal, more than 20K hours of instruction time logged. He gave me the complex endorsement in his Comanche 250. He told me then that most all CFI's teach "no useable runway", but then made the case for altitude as the best safety factor. When he checked me out in the Mooney a couple of years ago his advise was to raise the gear ASAP with positive climb. Get the altitude, never mind the runway.

This little video shows my gear retraction at 1:34 in.

Cool vid! But did you guys seriously mount a camera on the horizontal stabilizer???

[MyNameIsNobody]

This is all B.S.  Get the gear up.  The plane will fly better with gear up.  Climb better, stall better.  If you lose an engine gear is an option.  Get the friggin' gear up already...

[Hank]

That's what the NTSB report above said, too.

[Mooney20]

15 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's what the NTSB report above said, too.

If you read the complete report, then you failed to comprehend it.  Given that the airplane was actually almost 200 pounds over gross, the best option was to cut the operating engine and land straight ahead.  If that had been done, the aircraft would have stopped more than a thousand feet of runway remaining.  That was the gist of the many articles written about the accident at the time.  

[cliffy]

After thousands of hours in piston twins I lift and accelerate with a very shallow climb until blue line,as I cross blue line the gear comes up. One has to fully realize that ANY Part 23 twin has no guarantee of any climb single engine. When in an MU2 at least you can look up in the flight manual and see how much you will descend in ft/min at heavier weights and at what T/O weight will give you level or slight climb on one engine. It is a significant download of T/O weight to get up to zero climb rate. T/O at full gross and you loss one, and if your DA is high you're going to fly to the impact, no choice, do not pass go, do not collect $100. Even if you're Bob Hoover it ain't gonna fly.

In the Mooney with charlie armstrong gear I lift, get to 80 mph and suckem up, accelerate to 100 and while passing 90 I pull the flaps up. JMO YMMV

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Mooney20 said:

My manual gear Mooney was the first retractable in which I was checked out PIC. I flew it 17 years and a little over 2,000 tach hours.  From grass strips to 12,000' international airport runways, I kept the gear down until I could no longer land on the remaining runway.  It's what all pilot instruction manuals recommended at the time and it's the way I was taught.  I've done same in every single-engine retractable I've ever flown.

I guess while I'm at it, I'll really roll a grenade in a few tents here, but I flew piston twins exactly the same way.  A mentor I really respected once told me, "If you lose an engine right after takeoff in a piston twin anywhere near gross weight, you'll fly 'til you come to a two story house.  Keep your gear down until you're out of runway."

And it's true.  I used to fly B58 Barons full of overweight and overworked executives.  We were always at or near gross weight on takeoff.  One time on a layover, I got out the performance charts and very precisely calculated what would be the outcome if I sucked the gear right after liftoff at gross weight and then an engine-out occurred and I elected to continue.  It was pretty sobering.  According to the charts, by the time the airplane reached 500' AGL, it would be FIVE MILES down range.  That is with wings level climbing straight ahead!  The Baron has typical engine-out rate-of-climb performance for the piston twin breed.  The rate of climb seems reasonable; what kills you is the gradient of climb with an engine out.

Here's a link to a twin-at-gross accident well known in the early to mid-80s where the pilot should have just closed the throttles and landed straight ahead.  It was written about in all the magazines of the day:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR8008.pdf

 

In my opinion, that accident does not make a case for leaving the airplane dirty, if anything makes a case for the opposite. Landing is always an option even if the gear are up. Leaving the gear down is an attempt to save the airplane in the event the plane must be put back on the runway. Pitching for 80mph in a mooney puts the airplane in a high AOA, high drag situation. Not a good place for a laminar flow wing.