Vacuum Failure Enroute to Florida

[Seth]

1 hour ago, Bennett said:

 

I absolutely agree that the Aerosafe unit is an excellent unit. In 40+ years of flying I have lost a vacuum pump twice in IMC and once in VFR conditions. Both the IMC vacuum failures were in Mooneys with the Aerosafe unit, and were non events - flip the switch and watch the vacuum gauge indicate 5-6" of vacuum. I do replace vacuum pumps every 500 hours as a preventive, but interestingly both the IMC failures were with vacuum pumps that had been replaced less than 500 hours previously. When I redid my panel a couple of years ago I added the MidContinent LifeSaver electric backup AI (with battery). Expensive, but a beautiful unit. The new about to be certified Scanda (spelling) electric EFIS unit is less expensive, and provides more information. Dynon makes a portable EFIS that is not certified, but could serve well in an emergency. The price has dropped to about $1000.

The Dynon unit I've thought about quite a lot.  As an emergency tool.  Now with the Stratus and Foreflight, having AHRS a mounted iPhone/iPad may replace the Dynon idea.  I have thought of installing an electric AI as a second instrument in the panel for just this situation.  The technological advancements and portables have brought down the price of non legal emergency redundancy.

 

-Seth

[Hank]

40 minutes ago, PTK said:

Actually Mike that figure is not correct. It can be confusing.

With FD it's advertised at 5995$ retail. I think it's extremely reasonable for what it is and the potential it offers.

It's a solution to something that's been missing. Nothing else comes even close.

I know we had this discussion before. How much do you have to spend to do this with Garmin? Even if you settle for Aspen, how much would you have to spend?

Hold the other stuff they give you. If one wants to simply replace their KI256 with state of the art technology and remove their vacuum system how much $$ will it take? 

Your pricey box ($6000? $8000?) still won't interface with either of my Brittain units (AccuFlite and AccuTrak).  The heading bug is a great labor saver and workload reducer. So I'm sticking with my vacuum pump, saving the $$ for ADSB equipment that will transfer FAA maintenance expenses to me, with zero additional benefits. There are ZERO approved ADSB IN units, and I don't like to depend on battery-powered handheld units that overheat, run down or just zonk out without warning. Plus I have no panel space to put anything extra without removing something anyway. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Bennett said:

 

I absolutely agree that the Aerosafe unit is an excellent unit. In 40+ years of flying I have lost a vacuum pump twice in IMC and once in VFR conditions. Both the IMC vacuum failures were in Mooneys with the Aerosafe unit, and were non events - flip the switch and watch the vacuum gauge indicate 5-6" of vacuum. I do replace vacuum pumps every 500 hours as a preventive, but interestingly both the IMC failures were with vacuum pumps that had been replaced less than 500 hours previously. When I redid my panel a couple of years ago I added the MidContinent LifeSaver electric backup AI (with battery). Expensive, but a beautiful unit. The new about to be certified Scanda (spelling) electric EFIS unit is less expensive, and provides more information. Dynon makes a portable EFIS that is not certified, but could serve well in an emergency. The price has dropped to about $1000.

That isn't how I understand the backup electric vacuum to work, or rather should be used - anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I thought that if the AI tips due to loss of vacuum, that then it has lost reference to the horizon - if vacuum is restored and the AI starts spinning again, it would think that your unusual attitude is normal and would indicate that as level horizon.  Is that wrong?

So I also have an electric backup vacuum, and as SOP I always flip the switch on upon entering IMC, so that I have it running redundantly to the engine vacuum at any time that I would rather not loose attitude indication.  I do fly IMC, on probably 1/2 to 1/3 of my flights but I am picky in what sort of IMC I will fly in so more often than not it ends up being maybe 0.2-0.4 hrs of IMC I might log on say a 2 hr flight - that is the usual scenario - i.e., punching through to VMC on top, maybe an approach at the other end - and like I say 1/2-2/3 of the time it might be VMC the whole way.  Once in a while I will slog through an hours worth of IMC.  So what I am saying is, even flipping on my electric vacuum for every IMC encounter, it doesn't put much time on that second pump - although once in a while I forget to flip it off which I don't notice until I am shutting down - no big deal.  Question: So - if I want my backup vacuum to be useful to me - doesn't it need to be running already before the primary fails so there is no loss in continuity of the gyro's high speed spinning?

..and yes, I do also carry a certified electric gyro.  And a backup to the backup not certified gdl-39-3d.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Bennett said:  

I absolutely agree that the Aerosafe unit is an excellent unit. In 40+ years of flying I have lost a vacuum pump twice in IMC and once in VFR conditions. Both the IMC vacuum failures were in Mooneys with the Aerosafe unit, and were non events - flip the switch and watch the vacuum gauge indicate 5-6" of vacuum. I do replace vacuum pumps every 500 hours as a preventive, but interestingly both the IMC failures were with vacuum pumps that had been replaced less than 500 hours previously. When I redid my panel a couple of years ago I added the MidContinent LifeSaver electric backup AI (with battery). Expensive, but a beautiful unit. The new about to be certified Scanda (spelling) electric EFIS unit is less expensive, and provides more information. Dynon makes a portable EFIS that is not certified, but could serve well in an emergency. The price has dropped to about $1000.

The Dynon unit I've thought about quite a lot.  As an emergency tool.  Now with the Stratus and Foreflight, having AHRS a mounted iPhone/iPad may replace the Dynon idea.  I have thought of installing an electric AI as a second instrument in the panel for just this situation.  The technological advancements and portables have brought down the price of non legal emergency redundancy.

 

-Seth

As someone who hated (if not sucked) partial panel, I really love what redundancy is available today. I think back to the 90s when all I had was the vacuum AI and practice at doing partial panel.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bennett]

Still another alternative to the Dynon D 1/2 is Garmin's FlightStream with ForeFlight on an iPad Yoke mounted Mini. The FlightStream 210 has an AHRS that can provide a GPS based AI with the additional benefit of a SV background. Once again a capable backup in the event of an emergency.

[carqwik]

I am going to go with the B/K KI-300 before I change my vacuum pump or do a third O/H on my attitude indicator.  Hopefully the product will be out before either of those two "precipitating" events happen. 

[FlyDave]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

That isn't how I understand the backup electric vacuum to work, or rather should be used - anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I thought that if the AI tips due to loss of vacuum, that then it has lost reference to the horizon - if vacuum is restored and the AI starts spinning again, it would think that your unusual attitude is normal and would indicate that as level horizon.  Is that wrong?

So I also have an electric backup vacuum, and as SOP I always flip the switch on upon entering IMC, so that I have it running redundantly to the engine vacuum at any time that I would rather not loose attitude indication.  I do fly IMC, on probably 1/2 to 1/3 of my flights but I am picky in what sort of IMC I will fly in so more often than not it ends up being maybe 0.2-0.4 hrs of IMC I might log on say a 2 hr flight - that is the usual scenario - i.e., punching through to VMC on top, maybe an approach at the other end - and like I say 1/2-2/3 of the time it might be VMC the whole way.  Once in a while I will slog through an hours worth of IMC.  So what I am saying is, even flipping on my electric vacuum for every IMC encounter, it doesn't put much time on that second pump - although once in a while I forget to flip it off which I don't notice until I am shutting down - no big deal.  Question: So - if I want my backup vacuum to be useful to me - doesn't it need to be running already before the primary fails so there is no loss in continuity of the gyro's high speed spinning?

..and yes, I do also carry a certified electric gyro.  And a backup to the backup not certified gdl-39-3d.

Erik,

My electric backup vacuum pump is placarded to not run concurrently with the mechanical pump when it is working. Are you sure you're OK to run them at the same time?

[Oscar Avalle]

My Vacuum pump also died last week after I took off from Miami on my way back to KGAI, MD. Given that I have an Aspen as my primary, it was not too bad.

 

After I took off from Miami Executive the red light came on and that was it. After about 10 min the AI tumbled and it was gone. I didn't cover it up and learned to ignore it. The stand by pump was not of too much help. It did not generate enough vacuum to make the AI work. I am even wondering if my pump really died or if one of the hoses simply got lose. Does somebody know what would happen if a hose got lose or broke. Would the indication be the same?

Well, I will know next week once my mechanic is back from his break.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

[aviatoreb]

27 minutes ago, FlyDave said:

Erik,

My electric backup vacuum pump is placarded to not run concurrently with the mechanical pump when it is working. Are you sure you're OK to run them at the same time?

no I'm not. that is what I was told by a cfi during transition - I have no such placard.

so now you say not only is it not necessary / it is bad.

 

who here can say definitively or at least discuss - I should get to the bottom of this.

[FlyDave]

15 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

no I'm not. that is what I was told by a cfi during transition - I have no such placard.

so now you say not only is it not necessary / it is bad.

 

who here can say definitively or at least discuss - I should get to the bottom of this.

Erik,

I can't find anything in the electronic copy of the POH that I have. I'll look through the POH and documents with it when I'm at the airport tomorrow.

But take a look at the bottom of this pic for the placard:

 

[carl]

Mike ,

 My friend, Todd has his mechanic located at Zephyrhills KZPH, 38 miles , @270 degree from KISM. Todd flies his Mooney all the way up from fort Lauderdale to have him work on his plane.

I can get you his number if you are not set at KISM.

 

Carl

[PTK]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Your pricey box ($6000? $8000?) still won't interface with either of my Brittain units (AccuFlite and AccuTrak).  The heading bug is a great labor saver and workload reducer. So I'm sticking with my vacuum pump, saving the $$ for ADSB equipment that will transfer FAA maintenance expenses to me, with zero additional benefits. There are ZERO approved ADSB IN units, and I don't like to depend on battery-powered handheld units that overheat, run down or just zonk out without warning. Plus I have no panel space to put anything extra without removing something anyway. 

Clearly it may not be for you Hank.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Piloto]

A well dampened turn coordinator works very well in turning and maintaining level flight if you loose your AI. Even though there is no pitch depiction the pitch can be derived from the altimeter and VSI. Which is what you use to maintain altitude when doing steep turns anyway. Best way to avoid overshooting a turn is to use the GPS track function if DG is not available. I occasionally practice LPV approaches with no DG and no AI but just the turn coordinator. It works very well. The G530 has a compass arc and CDI display mode (first NAV page) that works great on shooting approaches without gyros.

José   

[jetdriven]

I dont see the value of depending on an iPad for emergency attitude information.  You turn the yoke, the iPad turns.  Then you're looking down at it or at it sitting on your lap.  I don't see how you're going to be able to control an airplane in IMC with that 

[flyboy0681]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I dont see the value of depending on an iPad for emergency attitude information.  You turn the yoke, the iPad turns.  Then you're looking down at it or at it sitting on your lap.  I don't see how you're going to be able to control an airplane in IMC with that 

I've been curious about this myself. Does anybody have any experience using it?

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I dont see the value of depending on an iPad for emergency attitude information.  You turn the yoke, the iPad turns.  Then you're looking down at it or at it sitting on your lap.  I don't see how you're going to be able to control an airplane in IMC with that 

I agree with yoke mounted attitude being a problem.. Take a look at thegarmin pilot svt running on the iPhone 4 (retired phone) at my left side. I often the run the traffic page there when Vmc.. and the ipad on the yoke is for charts and plates.

[flyboy0681]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I agree with yoke mounted attitude being a problem.. Take a look at thegarmin pilot svt running on the iPhone 4 (retired phone) at my left side. I often the run the traffic page there when Vmc.. and the ipad on the yoke is for charts and plates.

This may sound like a stupid question, but if you carried two sided tape on-board and attached the phone to where the AI is, would it work in a pinch?

[rbridges]

3 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

My Vacuum pump also died last week after I took off from Miami on my way back to KGAI, MD. Given that I have an Aspen as my primary, it was not too bad.

 

After I took off from Miami Executive the red light came on and that was it. After about 10 min the AI tumbled and it was gone. I didn't cover it up and learned to ignore it. The stand by pump was not of too much help. It did not generate enough vacuum to make the AI work. I am even wondering if my pump really died or if one of the hoses simply got lose. Does somebody know what would happen if a hose got lose or broke. Would the indication be the same?

Well, I will know next week once my mechanic is back from his break.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

 

when my pump went bad, I flipped on the backup pump, and the AI leveled itself.  I turned it off and watched it slowly rotate.  Bottom line, my backup seemed to be adequate; I also noticed the "low vacuum" light turned off with the backup engaged.  You may have a loose hose.

[aviatoreb]

40 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

This may sound like a stupid question, but if you carried two sided tape on-board and attached the phone to where the AI is, would it work in a pinch?

I would say no - not adequate - I couldn't see being in imc on a glide slope - vacuum

goes bad - now you are partial panel fishing in your pocket for your phone .. head down boot up garmin or fore flight - launch attitude mode - find tape in side pouch  - remove waxes paper backing - apply tape to phone and stick to Inoperable gauge - and keep wings level and on glide slope the whole while - too much for me!

if you have a phone with the svt already running and tape ready to go already on it / I bet it would work great though.

pilot friends - keep your old obsolete iPhones - they are cheap aircraft instruments 

[cnoe]

27 minutes ago, FlyDave said: Erik,

My electric backup vacuum pump is placarded to not run concurrently with the mechanical pump when it is working. Are you sure you're OK to run them at the same time?

no I'm not. that is what I was told by a cfi during transition - I have no such placard.

so now you say not only is it not necessary / it is bad.

 

who here can say definitively or at least discuss - I should get to the bottom of this.

I have the optional electric backup vac pump and it is designated for activation "in the event of a malfunction in the primary engine driven pump" according to my POH supplement. It is not intended for concurrent operation.

I also have a Castleberry electric backup AI which becomes "primary" if I lose engine driven vacuum. It runs full-time and has replaced my turn coordinator.

In the event of primary (engine driven) vacuum loss I turn the AP off and my scan goes to the Castleberry. The backup electric vac is then turned on and once vac is verified on the panel gauge (and the 2 Attitude Indicators agree) I resume use of the AP.

The Stratus2 AHRS provides a 4th level of redundancy on 2 iPads and my iPhone.

If after all that I find it impossible to keep the shiny side up then I've surely exhausted all my Karma.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest]

For those with an electric standby vacuum pump It should be turned on prior to starting the engine.  It should be easily capable of   providing enough vacuum to run both the AI and the DG, if it won't why bother having it installed?  

Note the time required to spin up both instruments, it should not be long, no different than the time to spin up both instruments with the primary pump.

Clarence

[cnoe]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said: I dont see the value of depending on an iPad for emergency attitude information.  You turn the yoke, the iPad turns.  Then you're looking down at it or at it sitting on your lap.  I don't see how you're going to be able to control an airplane in IMC with that 

I've been curious about this myself. Does anybody have any experience using it?

Just making sure we're on the same page here... The AHRS is in the Stratus2, not the iPad itself. The iPad display shows the same attitude no matter how it's positioned or tilted. You may have to look down (not the best idea in IMC) but the info you see is fairly accurate. Still, a certified solution is much much better.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cnoe]

For those with an electric standby vacuum pump It should be turned on prior to starting the engine.  It should be easily capable of   providing enough vacuum to run both the AI and the DG, if it won't why bother having it installed?  

Note the time required to spin up both instruments, it should not be long, no different than the time to spin up both instruments with the primary pump.

Clarence

Agreed. Turned on and proper vacuum noted before every IFR flight. Then turned off before startup.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MooneyBob]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I agree with yoke mounted attitude being a problem.. Take a look at thegarmin pilot svt running on the iPhone 4 (retired phone) at my left side. I often the run the traffic page there when Vmc.. and the ipad on the yoke is for charts and plates.

Is your phone Garmin Pilot AI with synthetic vision stabil? I have tried to use it few times but it seems very erratic and the pitch has to be reset all the time. My is connected to Garmin 210. I also have GSL39 3D but I don't see any difference. 

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, MooneyBob said:

Is your phone Garmin Pilot AI with synthetic vision stabil? I have tried to use it few times but it seems very erratic and the pitch has to be reset all the time. My is connected to Garmin 210. I also have GSL39 3D but I don't see any difference. 

it seems perfectly stable - what you are looking at there is after w 45 min flight and the attitude is still good since start up.. it's with the gdl39-3D behind the window center post barely in view in the picture.. I have never seen it hiccup.