King 256 Failure

[mike_elliott]

The G500 is not a G1000.  There is no reversion from PFD to MFD, although that would certainly be nice.  I am also unaware of any battery backup available for the G500.  Certainly nothing has been discussed on BeechTalk or presented at Oshkosh this year.  My discussion above referred to the Genesis L-3 ESI 500 currently in certification and I am told will be available by November of this year.  Like my ESI 2000 backup to the G500, it has a multi hour battery backup and additionally input from a GPS for navigation and SVT.

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to with regards the GAD 43e and legacy hardware.  Its job is to provide the interface to the AP, DME, ADF, and provide Altitude and Vertical preselect to a number of autopilots.

The Genesis ESI 500 is a very interesting piece, but will come in at $9640 with the options plus install.

[Marauder]

No it is 2.4 times the money. He can over haul his existing Ki256 2.4 times, or get about 2400 more hours out of it than purchasing a ki300

He cannot purchase a KI300 today. His plane is grounded, and It is vaporware. Why try to sell this to him today, Peter King? It doesn't exist!

The Ki256 is brand new technology. Where is the data to back up your assertion that it will outlast the old many times over. Gut feeling blind study?

It really is that simple.

Mike! You know Peter King! The reason he can claim his fine Swiss watch will run forever is that he uses CamGuard religiously to keep that gyro running at top form.

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[Houman]

And your panel is indeed a beautiful system, Don. If 20x the cost (or more) of the OH is in the budget, why not? My only point was to say at 6000, King ki300 might not be the best bang for the buck. Yes its on the "cheap" compared to your panel, but not for what its deliverables are compared to what else is available for slightly more. The Aspen fills this gap very nicely, with a deliverable list that exceeds anything for the same cost. No, its not as  big of a display as the g500, but very adequate, leaving panel space to put the many AMU's you will save with an aspen system.

Personally, if cost were no object, I would do something very similar to what you have done with the G500, recognizing my ongoing subscription costs will be higher also. But we digress, this isn't a panel weenie wag, it is a discussion of the best options

 

Sink 2500 into a ki256 repair and get ready to do it again in 5 to 7 years of normal flying, less if flown a lot.

Sink 6000 into an unknown ki600 and ground the plane until it becomes available and take the chance it will have any kind of reliability being an early adapter

Sink 12K into an aspen and convert your plane from steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 28K into a G500 and convert your plane from a steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 100K+ and get a plane with this all done in it

Sink 800K and get a new Acclaim

I will take the last option, with a nice paint job please !!!

[donkaye]

Heresy you say! Peter has told us that the KI-256 is a Swiss watch and is as reliable as one! 

 

Go up and run this test with the KI 256.  Run a standard left hand pattern.  Turn base and then final.  When you roll level on final, visually look at the KI 256.  Does it show level?  My bet is that it does not.  Now think of being vectored to final from the left in IMC conditions.  Having run this test, how comfortable do you feel?

[donkaye]

And your panel is indeed a beautiful system, Don. If 20x the cost (or more) of the OH is in the budget, why not? My only point was to say at 6000, King ki300 might not be the best bang for the buck. Yes its on the "cheap" compared to your panel, but not for what its deliverables are compared to what else is available for slightly more. The Aspen fills this gap very nicely, with a deliverable list that exceeds anything for the same cost. No, its not as  big of a display as the g500, but very adequate, leaving panel space to put the many AMU's you will save with an aspen system.

Personally, if cost were no object, I would do something very similar to what you have done with the G500, recognizing my ongoing subscription costs will be higher also. But we digress, this isn't a panel weenie wag, it is a discussion of the best options

 

Sink 2500 into a ki256 repair and get ready to do it again in 5 to 7 years of normal flying, less if flown a lot.

Sink 6000 into an unknown ki600 and ground the plane until it becomes available and take the chance it will have any kind of reliability being an early adapter

Sink 12K into an aspen and convert your plane from steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 28K into a G500 and convert your plane from a steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 100K+ and get a plane with this all done in it

Sink 800K and get a new Acclaim

 

One other option.  My insurance company incredibly says a Mooney Bravo not upgraded has a puny value of $115,000, which to me is just a ridiculously low price. Everyone should go jump on any one of those if they can find one for that price.  That would be the best bargain in the flying universe.  Anyway, if one should find one for that price and upgraded it to what I have, they would have less than $200,000 in an airplane that surpasses the avionics of the current production $800,000 Acclaim that does not have ADS-B in.

[donkaye]

I will take the last option, with a nice paint job please !!!

 

As much as I love flying the Acclaim, I wouldn't take that option when I could have more capability for ¼ the cost, as I just discussed above.  The only thing I would not have is 25 knots more speed and flying west that usually gets whittled down to a negligible amount.  Oh, sorry---hijacked thread....

[Marauder]

Go up and run this test with the KI 256. Run a standard left hand pattern. Turn base and then final. When you roll level on final visually, look at the KI 256. Does it show level. My bet is that it does not. Now think of being vectored to final from the left in IMC conditions. Having run this test, how comfortable to you feel?

Calling Peter King, calling Peter King! Since I don't own or have ever owned a KI-256, could you run Don's experiment on your Swiss watch and tell us what time it shows?

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[mike_elliott]

One other option.  My insurance company incredibly says a Mooney Bravo not upgraded has a puny value of $115,000, which to me is just a ridiculously low price. Everyone should go jump on any one of those if they an find one for that price.  That would be the best bargain in the flying universe.  Anyway, if one should find one for that price and upgraded it to what I have, they would have less than $200,000 in an airplane that surpasses the avionics of the current production $800,000 Acclaim that does not have ADS-B in.

I know of 2 that sold for 125K in the last year or so. One had TKS, high time motor, one mid time motor. One is owned by a list member, one is living now in Washington, being flown on weekends by a professional pilot. One had an aspen, 430W, one had a GTN750 

And Jimmy Garrison wants 125K for an E!

[KSMooniac]

That E certainly rivals the super-nice E that Don cared-for and upgraded over the years prior to it's untimely demise in a fatal crash.    The TN-E with 201 speed mods is the ultimate 2+2 speedster.  It will have dramatically lower operating costs than an M, but only time will tell if there is a buyer at anywhere near that price.  I don't doubt there is $200k in that airframe, but it needs a very specific buyer of course.

[donkaye]

I know of 2 that sold for 125K in the last year or so. One had TKS, high time motor, one mid time motor. One is owned by a list member, one is living now in Washington, being flown on weekends by a professional pilot. One had an aspen, 430W, one had a GTN750 

And Jimmy Garrison wants 125K for an E!

 

I CAN see the issue for a high time engine, since a reman installed can run $80,000.  While I know I'm prejudice, having extensively taught in and flown nearly every model Mooney, the Mooney Bravo for the price is the best performing personal airliner in the Mooney fleet---by far!

[mike_elliott]

I CAN see the issue for a high time engine, since a reman installed can run $80,000.  While I know I'm prejudice, having extensively taught in and flown nearly every model Mooney, the Mooney Bravo for the price is the best performing personal airliner in the Mooney fleet---by far!

 I have recently heard that he is getting a reman for 56K (OSH special) now.  So, he has 181 K in a well equipped, zero time motor, aspen equipped Bravo..

 

 

Bravo!!

[mike_elliott]

Go up and run this test with the KI 256.  Run a standard left hand pattern.  Turn base and then final.  When you roll level on final, visually look at the KI 256.  Does it show level?  My bet is that it does not.  Now think of being vectored to final from the left in IMC conditions.  Having run this test, how comfortable do you feel?

If you don't have your KI256 aligned with the KAP150/200 computer after OH, you might see some really interesting things! (Oh, add another $400 for the alignment) 

[aviatoreb]

If you don't have your KI256 aligned with the KAP150/200 computer after OH, you might see some really interesting things! (Oh, add another $400 for the alignment) 

 

My shop did that - and yes I paid for it.

[aviatoreb]

And your panel is indeed a beautiful system, Don. If 20x the cost (or more) of the OH is in the budget, why not? My only point was to say at 6000, King ki300 might not be the best bang for the buck. Yes its on the "cheap" compared to your panel, but not for what its deliverables are compared to what else is available for slightly more. The Aspen fills this gap very nicely, with a deliverable list that exceeds anything for the same cost. No, its not as  big of a display as the g500, but very adequate, leaving panel space to put the many AMU's you will save with an aspen system.

Personally, if cost were no object, I would do something very similar to what you have done with the G500, recognizing my ongoing subscription costs will be higher also. But we digress, this isn't a panel weenie wag, it is a discussion of the best options

 

Sink 2500 into a ki256 repair and get ready to do it again in 5 to 7 years of normal flying, less if flown a lot.

Sink 6000 into an unknown ki600 and ground the plane until it becomes available and take the chance it will have any kind of reliability being an early adapter

Sink 12K into an aspen and convert your plane from steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 28K into a G500 and convert your plane from a steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 100K+ and get a plane with this all done in it

Sink 800K and get a new Acclaim

 

Pretty good summary.

 

Except you forgot "buy new TBM900 with G2000" for 3.2M

[aviatoreb]

Your comments do bring up a bit of nostalgia and memories of days gone by. I remember back in 1988 when I awestruck at the guy who stuck a Northstar M1 LORAN in his plane. I thought technology had reached its pinnacle. Little did I know...

 

Even 3 years ago, cutting edge for me was a VFR GPS backing up my /A airplane filled with paper charts. Times have changed and with it the technology. And what a ride it is becoming. To think, my biggest concern in 2012 was a complete vacuum failure and an infected paper cut from my Jepps. No matter what you put in your plane, the advantages of today's technologies is evident especially for onboard weather and traffic alerts. 

 

How many still have a catalog case in a closet that you used for your Jepps? Come on, fess up. 

 

That's exactly it - I keep thinking that anything certified is already 5-10 year old technology....and I don't mind buying a new iPad today to have it be obsolete - or at least no longer the latest and greatest, in a few months.  But it hurts more when the investment is 12k, or 28k.  And the iPad revolution has gotten me annoyed at the certified stuff when I see functions missing in certified equipment that are in iPad apps.

 

Meanwhile, I do like my Swiss watch system - it never goes obsolete.  Loran goes obsolete.  Swiss watches go classic.

 

I think a little camguard in there could help.

[donkaye]

Pretty good summary.

 

Except you forgot "buy new TBM900 with G2000" for 3.2M

 

Does the G2000 have ADS-B IN and OUT?  I bet not, yet, and when they do you can bet the cost will be a lot more than 20 times the cost of my system.  If they think you can pay it on the jets and turboprops, you can count on their charging outrageously for it.  No, I prefer the Bravo, thank you.

[donkaye]

That's exactly it - I keep thinking that anything certified is already 5-10 year old technology....and I don't mind buying a new iPad today to have it be obsolete - or at least no longer the latest and greatest, in a few months.  But it hurts more when the investment is 12k, or 28k.  And the iPad revolution has gotten me annoyed at the certified stuff when I see functions missing in certified equipment that are in iPad apps.

 

Meanwhile, I do like my Swiss watch system - it never goes obsolete.  Loran goes obsolete.  Swiss watches go classic.

 

I think a little camguard in there could help.

 

For the moment, hardware on the certified stuff isn't changing that much.  Garmin has been really good at providing outstanding system upgrades to their existing products to keep them fresh.  I think I like the G500 better than the 3GX, although I have no time on the latter.  As an example, it's a lot easier to highlight traffic and get details on the G500 with its knobs and buttons than doing the same function on the touch screen of the GTN 750.

[Alan Fox]

Funny thing , but I have never had to have any of my swiss watches repaired.....So just to qualify , Marauder ,   Is it Peter Garmin , Peter King , or King Peter Garmin , King Buiscuit???  I'm so confused.........   Can someone please put up one of those readers Polls so we can vote on it???

[Marauder]

Funny thing , but I have never had to have any of my swiss watches repaired.....So just to qualify , Marauder , Is it Peter Garmin , Peter King , or King Peter Garmin , King Buiscuit??? I'm so confused......... Can someone please put up one of those readers Polls so we can vote on it???

We're all confused. Perhaps because he is such a complex individual, we may never know. BTW -- you forgot one, Peter CamGuard.

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[Marauder]

My 256 went bad on me in October of last year.

Epps put in a new one (well, overhauled) for $4,000. Not two weeks went by when that one failed. So they R&R it with another unit, and that failed. They sent it off to get repaired at a local facility here in Atlanta, and reinstalled it. EVERY time I engaged the A/P, the airplane would lower the nose, and then take off like a damn aerobatic airplane in a 90 degree climb if I didn't catch it in time. So needless to say that one was taken out. They were going to send it out again and I threw a fit. I was being charged labor for this every time, and it was up to about $12,000 at this point and time. They had a perfectly good "new" one on the shelf that they didn't want to put in. I was sick of paying for parking there and not being able to fly the airplane so I made a stink of it, they installed the newer one as a "loaner" until my other one got back. Well, it never did return to them, and the avionics managers were fired - as they should be.

After all that money - I could have put an Aspen in it. And I did inquire with them how much it would cost. For the best Aspen, just one unit, and do you know what they quoted me?!?! $28,000!!!!!!!!! I was fit to be tied!

Anyways, I still have my loaner in, but they never calibrated the autopilot to it, and I'm always left of course a bit. So if I'm shooting an ILS, it lines me up with the runway lights on the left side of the runway. They won't pay to fix that, and now since they don't work on Mooneys, they won't even do it if I paid them!

I do love my old steam gauges. I have the fancy glass, FMC, ACARS, etc at work. I like to come home and fly this, even though the 430W and A/P do exactly what I want it to do. It's a perfect match for me. But after $12K, I would have put an Aspen in!!! Jeez.

Yeah - see above for that. I still need to get it done.

Stories like yours make me glad I never owned a mechanical HSI.

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[aviatoreb]

Almost entirely unrelated....but a little bit related since we are talking about Swiss watches...

 

I googled the topic and came up with this really cool documentary about artisan Swiss watch makers - individuals who make custom Swiss watches, and they sell for $500k.  A watch for $500k!!!!  Check out how these guys work.  They have a special high table they work on and they steady their hand by biting the table with their teeth.

 

[PTK]

No it is 2.4 times the money. He can over haul his existing Ki256 2.4 times, or get about 2400 more hours out of it than purchasing a ki300

He cannot purchase a KI300 today. His plane is grounded, and It is vaporware. Why try to sell this to him today, Peter King? It doesn't exist!

The Ki256 is brand new technology. Where is the data to back up your assertion that it will outlast the old many times over. Gut feeling blind study?

It really is that simple.

Not so fast there Mike!

He can spend about 4 grand and overhaul his existing KI 256 and end up with the same vaccum gyro and with fingers crossed start counting time until next overhaul.

Or he can spend 6 grand (street price will probably be lower) and update the AI with a brand spankin new one with the latest technology solid state, AHRS, flight director, battery backup and no extra boxes of any kind!

I guess there's no value in that huh Mike?

It really is a very simple concept.

BTW you show me your data backing up your 20K Aspen solution you're proposing is not going to red X blankie when it's least expected! They've been known to do that. (It happened to my buddy about a year and a half ago. And guess what it was just out of warranty! He was not a happy camper to say the least. There's an examle of being stuck!)

[PTK]

Go up and run this test with the KI 256.  Run a standard left hand pattern.  Turn base and then final.  When you roll level on final, visually look at the KI 256.  Does it show level?  My bet is that it does not.  Now think of being vectored to final from the left in IMC conditions.  Having run this test, how comfortable do you feel?

Flew a test pattern today Don. Mine does show level. (knock wood hope I didn't jinx it!)

[donkaye]

Flew a test pattern today Don. Mine does show level. (knock wood hope I didn't jinx it!)

 

Interesting.  In 3 OH's mine never did show level in that test.  Why don't you run the test from a right hand pattern to see if there is any difference?

[PTK]

Interesting. In 3 OH's mine never did show level in that test.

I should have videoed it. I'll do it next time.