Houman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hi, Reviewing my flight plan options for getting to KMSN and I was wondering if I really need an inflatable raft to cross lake Michigan as you can see in the attached flight plan, at the most, I will be flying over water for 30 minutes max in either location. I do have 4 aviation grade life jackets and plan to fly pretty high ( around 14K to 16K feet ), not sure what is legal in US, what is recommanded and what is overkill since plane will be packed with camping stuff, fuel and 2 pilots, we will be near the max weight. All flights will have to be VFR, since neither pilot is IFR rated yet. Thanks !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 91.509 (a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each occupant of the airplane. ( Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may take off an airplane for flight over water more than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest shore, whichever is less, unless it has on board the following survival equipment: (1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator light, for each occupant of the airplane. (2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of the airplane. (3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft. (4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane power supply. (5) A lifeline stored in accordance with §25.1411(g) of this chapter. I have crossed Lake Michigan. I take vests and cross where the lake is narrow. 44 miles. However, I have only done it west-east and at an altitude where I could make it to shore with an engine-out. That generally is not possible east-west because of prevailing winds. I have crossed to the Bahamas, but we always take a raft and vests, required by Bahamian aviation regs. Lake Michigan water is cold and I have read incidents where it took a long time for help to arrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesm20b Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Daytime VFR over the Water is not a big deal. Night flight over the southwest desert would be a greater concern for me. If you have an engine failure over the water you can ditch near a boat or shore and is survivable. You have an engine failure over the dark desert at night is a different story. The desert at night is a big black hole. You can't tell what kind of terrain is in front of you until you hit it. But people don't seem to have a fear of flying over the desert at night but question flying over large bodies of water. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I have flown over Lake Michigan 3 times. You don't need a life raft. There are parts of Arizona that would be almost impossible to do an emergency landing, yet people fly over them every day. There is something about that lake that freaks people out. I have flown over the sea of Cortez. It is about the same size as Lake Michigan yet it doesn't seem like a big deal because you can see the shore at all times because the visibility is always CAVU. Lake Michigan on the other hand usually has crapy vis and all you can see for about a half an hour is haze and the water below you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 91.509 (a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each occupant of the airplane. ( Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may take off an airplane for flight over water more than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest shore, whichever is less, unless it has on board the following survival equipment: (1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator light, for each occupant of the airplane. (2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of the airplane. (3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft. (4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane power supply. (5) A lifeline stored in accordance with §25.1411(g) of this chapter. I have crossed Lake Michigan. I take vests and cross where the lake is narrow. 44 miles. However, I have only done it west-east and at an altitude where I could make it to shore with an engine-out. That generally is not possible east-west because of prevailing winds. I have crossed to the Bahamas, but we always take a raft and vests, required by Bahamian aviation regs. Lake Michigan water is cold and I have read incidents where it took a long time for help to arrive. Ok if I understand that FAR and thanks for siting it, I should be legal if none of the crossing are more than 30 min or 100 NM and I do have aviation grade life jackets, not sure my jackets have light on it, I have never used them ( thank god )... Am I reading this right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I just checked, the widest part of Lake Michigan is only 80 miles, so there is nowhere where you will be more than 50 miles from shore. I can cross the whole thing in about 1/2 hour. So nothing is required, bur some floatation devices would make me feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 91.509 This is in Subpart F of Part 91, which only applies to "Large and Turbine-Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft. It doesn't apply to anyone flying a Mooney. Nor does 91.205 apply, if the aircraft isn't being operated for hire. There is no US FAR requirement for a private operator to carry any special over-water equipment in a piston single. Completely up to you to decide what is prudent and safe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 This is in Subpart F of Part 91, which only applies to "Large and Turbine-Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft. It doesn't apply to anyone flying a Mooney. Nor does 91.205 apply, if the aircraft isn't being operated for hire. There is no US FAR requirement for a private operator to carry any special over-water equipment in a piston single. Completely up to you to decide what is prudent and safe. Ok, I guess flying high during the day and having aviation grade life preservers for everyone on board should be good enough ! I guess I would start my descent after crossing water to keep maximum range in case something happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 The problem with the lake is its cold no matter what time of year it is. I have flown over it 4 times and don't care to do it again. -Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 The problem with the lake is its cold no matter what time of year it is. I have flown over it 4 times and don't care to do it again. -Matt Ok, but putting aside the remote chance of failure flying on water, how does it impact an airplane flying at 14000 feet or higher, with turbo and dual intercoolers as the Rocket does, I mean I flown it at that altitude in very cold winter days and had no issue beside a bit of cooler CHT and EGT, which is not a bad thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I know, I know...it's hard to justify flying around the horn. I crossed it in an RG182 3 times one summer. That airplane had an engine failure a week after I landed, I was not flying it, but it got my attention and said no thanks. -Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 You might consider using the Lake Reporting Service (http://www.faraim.org/aim/aim-4-03-14-173.html). You file a special flight plan and open in with the LRS right before you cross. If you fail to check in at regular intervals they send search & rescue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Ok, but putting aside the remote chance of failure flying on water, how does it impact an airplane flying at 14000 feet or higher, with turbo and dual intercoolers as the Rocket does, I mean I flown it at that altitude in very cold winter days and had no issue beside a bit of cooler CHT and EGT, which is not a bad thing... Houman, what MB65E is referring to is lake water temperature... not air temp up at your altitude. If you ditch in that lake, the issue is hyportermia... so do it, if you need to, near a boat that can help you. I did cross it with my C at 8K and also 2K last summer... I was VFR at 2K and could not go above the deck. Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 When I cross it I do have approved life vests, my wife can't swim, so I make sure she has it on or ready to. There are quite a few approaches where your over the water going slow and in a vulnerable spot, say going into Logan or Knew, I wonder how many even consider the possibility of an engine failure on approach to these airports...just a thought.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I crossed a couple of weeks ago from Traverse City at 8K ft. It was 22 minutes from coast to coast. I wear the life vest while crossing..don't want to be searching and fussing if things go bad...I'll be busy enough. I wa on an IFR felt plan, so it should be on flightaware.com. N226C Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Using the rubber band technique, how much distance is added when you fly gliding distance to the shore? I prefer the highest non-O2 altitudes for my long distance travels. Boats are nice, but the shore is always right where you left it, and there are more boats closer to shore. Following the rules for legal purpose is good. Minimizing time over water, outside of gliding distance is better. Plan A: don't rely on a boat to be there for you. Too many things can go wrong... Plan B: don't cross the long way because it is legal. It is still a long way to shore... Just my thoughts, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 The problem is the water temperature. If you only last 30-60 minutes you may be dead by the time they find you. A raft greatly helps in this instance. I have inflatable life jackets and a raft for this purpose and I just used them today coming back from Nantucket. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 The problem is the water temperature. If you only last 30-60 minutes you may be dead by the time they find you. A raft greatly helps in this instance. I have inflatable life jackets and a raft for this purpose and I just used them today coming back from Nantucket. Yeah I got to get a raft, I already have the life jackets. Do you know if there are places that rent the raft ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi, Reviewing my flight plan options for getting to KMSN and I was wondering if I really need an inflatable raft to cross lake Michigan as you can see in the attached flight plan, at the most, I will be flying over water for 30 minutes max in either location. I do have 4 aviation grade life jackets and plan to fly pretty high ( around 14K to 16K feet ), not sure what is legal in US, what is recommanded and what is overkill since plane will be packed with camping stuff, fuel and 2 pilots, we will be near the max weight. All flights will have to be VFR, since neither pilot is IFR rated yet. Thanks !!! At the point where you cross just after MSN - the lake is about 60miles wide. Just a bit further north it is 50 miles wide and that might be worth it to go just a bit out of the way for the following: At 16K, your rocket has a 3 miles per 1000ft glide ratio in full feather, so that is 3*16 or just shy of 50 miles. Ie. in no wind you could glide to EITHER shore at all times (almost) but at least one shore at all times in almost all wind conditions. So no life preserver necessary. As a different aside - there was a fellow from a nearby airport to us in upstate NY - from Watertown, NY, who tried to cross the lakes at 2000ft - and ran out of fuel - and he ditched. He ended up spending 17 hours in the water with no life preserver but somehow survived with the "deadman's float" and filling his pants with air periodically. Not recommended! But good for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 If it makes you feel any safer, there is a Coast Guard Station at Traverse City KTVC right at the airport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks all for the comments, I know we are talking about cold water tempeature, I will adjust my flight plan to pass where the distance between shores are a bit shorter, climb to 14500 before getting to the 1st shore and be ready to turn to the prevaling wind direction in case I need to glide back to shore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Houman, After the stop in Sarnia CYZR you could head for KGRB Green Bay for customs, this allows the lake crossing at the narrow portion. And is farther north toward Traverse City and the Coast Guard station. After Green Bay continue to Madison going west around Oshkosh. If you have to go the northern route we stop at KDRM for customs then continue following the northern shore. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Houman: I have looked at the weather as well, and was considering departing tomorrow to go via KRDM or KANJ (Sault Ste Marie, Michigan) to clear customs, but it is not certain that we could get all the way to Madison on Thursday. We would possibly overnight outside the system and try for Madison the next morning. However, that still puts me too close to the system which will be parked over Michigan from near midnight on Friday to about 5 or 6 pm. See attached weather forecast pics from the AOPA website. However, if we cross the border immediately and clear customs in Syracuse, then we can stay south of the system the entire way into Illinois and then turn north to Madison (just skirting Chicago airspace who do not like GA aircraft during EAA). See the attached proposed routing for this. For me, this involves 1 hr to Syracuse, 2 hrs and 40 mins to Fort Wayne (gas and lunch) and then 1 hr and 40 mins to Madison. Good flying day for Ute and I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Why not just put a bit of a corner in it and fly over Beaver Island and the UP? I don't think it'll cost you more than 20 minutes and is utterly gorgeous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted July 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Thanks guys, I have to redo my route in case of Weather, I will see if going a bit more south would work. I was hoping to leave on Friday, but my co-pilot might not be able to, so will probably leave very very early Saturday morning... Still undecided for time and route, weather will dictate. Thanks ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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