Barry Schiff article

[fantom]

I wonder just how well Israel would be doing without the untold billions of U.S. dollars given to them over the decades since 1948?

What Arab country would be willing to speak loud and clear about the plight of the people (of what ever name you call them in what ever name you want to give the land) and risk the ire of America and risk the economic handouts from America? (Cuba is an example of what pissing off America can do for your county) Certainly they would never consider battle with Israel, it's been proven that Israel with enough American made military equipment can defeat most opponents.

Clarence

 

Just as England and France, thus Canada, stayed free due to the USA investment in $ and lives through the 20th Century. Your country is still shielded by your neighbor to the south. Israel (the only democracy in the Middle East) can, and probably will have to, do just fine on their own. 

 

What nonsense...but this is an aviation forum. 

[flyboy0681]

 

What nonsense...but this is an aviation forum. 

 

I started this out as an essay on my fascinating flying experience there.

[fantom]

I started this out as an essay on my fascinating flying experience there.

 

Noted, and a fine report it was. Now we're about an inch away from hearing from Holocaust deniers. 

[flyboy0681]

Now we're about an inch away from hearing from Holocaust deniers. 

 

I didn't know Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visits Mooneyspace.

[fantom]

I didn't know Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visits Mooneyspace.

 

Just in another guise 

[Bravoman]

I wonder just how well Israel would be doing without the untold billions of U.S. dollars given to them over the decades since 1948?

What Arab country would be willing to speak loud and clear about the plight of the people (of what ever name you call them in what ever name you want to give the land) and risk the ire of America and risk the economic handouts from America? (Cuba is an example of what pissing off America can do for your county) Certainly they would never consider battle with Israel, it's been proven that Israel with enough American made military equipment can defeat most opponents.

Clarence

Including our colony to the north!

[Bravoman]

Oh, I forgot to add this:!

[helitim]

"You're view of history is exactly why Israelis are now shitting a brick and feel that North America is starting to fail them."

Are you suggesting we owe the Israelis something? The U.S. Helps other countries because we choose to. Regardless of the reason for the assistance, it is a choice for the U.S. to offer, or not offer, assistance to any other country. The "entitlement" mentality is something that should be eliminated in all forms including here in America. Earn your keep.

Tim

[flyboy0681]

"You're view of history is exactly why Israelis are now shitting a brick and feel that North America is starting to fail them."

Are you suggesting we owe the Israelis something? The U.S. Helps other countries because we choose to. Regardless of the reason for the assistance, it is a choice for the U.S. to offer, or not offer, assistance to any other country. The "entitlement" mentality is something that should be eliminated in all forms including here in America. Earn your keep.

Tim

 

I didn't suggest that at all. At a time when the globe is turning their backs against them, they need all the friends they can get and if they lose the moral support of America it could have serious repercussions.

 

Believe me, as American's we want a democracy in that part of the world, whether you support their right to exist or not.

[gsxrpilot]

I'll just throw this out there...  I work for an Israeli based company, and the previous company was also Israeli. So I've been traveling to Israel for the last 16 years pretty regularly. I was there during the last Intifada and was witness to a suicide bombing. I was last in Tel Aviv in March of this year and will return to Tel Aviv in a couple of weeks. I have countless Israeli friends and have stayed in their homes on numerous occasions.  The vast majority of my Israeli friends are very progressive and want to see peace with the Palestinians. I don't know a single person, personally, who voted for Netanyahu.

 

Several of my good friends are also pilots, and one has been here to the US and has taken the controls of my Mooney... just to bring the conversation back. I must say, he was a very good stick.

 

This upcoming trip, my wife will accompany me and we will also visit Petra and the Wadi Rum in Jordan. Israel is one of my favorite countries to visit. (I've only been to 49 different countries.) American's are very popular, it's safe, the food is excellent, and the night life is amazing. If you like history, there is much to experience and see. Even without a religious view, touring Jerusalem, Jaffa, the Dead Sea, Masada, etc.  is a wonderful experience. And despite what Andy said, I've always enjoyed the beach in Tel Aviv. Hanging out on a summer evening, watching the sun set over the Mediterranean, with good food, and good beer, and good friends, is one of my favorite things.

 

All this typing is getting me excited again for what will be my 12th trip to Tel Aviv and Israel.

[flyboy0681]

I'll just throw this out there...  I work for an Israeli based company, and the previous company was also Israeli. So I've been traveling to Israel for the last 16 years pretty regularly. I was there during the last Intifada and was witness to a suicide bombing. I was last in Tel Aviv in March of this year and will return to Tel Aviv in a couple of weeks. I have countless Israeli friends and have stayed in their homes on numerous occasions.  The vast majority of my Israeli friends are very progressive and want to see peace with the Palestinians. I don't know a single person, personally, who voted for Netanyahu.

 

Several of my good friends are also pilots, and one has been here to the US and has taken the controls of my Mooney... just to bring the conversation back. I must say, he was a very good stick.

 

This upcoming trip, my wife will accompany me and we will also visit Petra and the Wadi Rum in Jordan. Israel is one of my favorite countries to visit. (I've only been to 49 different countries.) American's are very popular, it's safe, the food is excellent, and the night life is amazing. If you like history, there is much to experience and see. Even without a religious view, touring Jerusalem, Jaffa, the Dead Sea, Masada, etc.  is a wonderful experience. And despite what Andy said, I've always enjoyed the beach in Tel Aviv. Hanging out on a summer evening, watching the sun set over the Mediterranean, with good food, and good beer, and good friends, is one of my favorite things.

 

All this typing is getting me excited again for what will be my 12th trip to Tel Aviv and Israel.

 

 

Ditto ditto ditto on all accounts (especially the food). One thing that also struck me was just how far the dollar goes there. We ate extremely well for $15 a plate. A great meal would have costed about $22.

 

Your comment on Petra is interesting because the peace deal that Israel made with Jordan has worked extremely well. Now that the border between the two has been opened, Jordan has benefited from unprecedented tourism from Israel with huge successes. That's one benefit of putting down arms and talking things out to resolve issues.

[David Mazer]

If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel. - Benjamin Netanyahu

 

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Mier

 

When the ill winds blow, I will always stand with the Muslims. -  Barak Obama A more complete version of these comments shows this portion was taken out of context.  I need to do more homework before posting.

 

I think these quotes say more than anything I can say.

[flyboy0681]

They would if they were true. But of course, you are at best misinformed and at worst, spreading misinformation. He never said anything like that. The quote you're referring to is this, which would be Barry standing up for all Americans. It had nothing do with Israel and once again, the quotation you're referring to never happened.

 

"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

 

So where did the quote come from? Was it, like a lot of things he supposedly said, totally fabricated?

[flyboy0681]

So where did the quote come from? Was it, like a lot of things he supposedly said, totally fabricated?

 

Nevermind, I found it. It appears to have been totally fabricated according to this Snopes article on the subject. 

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/coilofrage.asp

[cliffy]

Just a question-

How did a nice "travel log" commentary degenerate into a biased political diatribe so quickly?

[AndyFromCB]

Just a question-

How did a nice "travel log" commentary degenerate into a biased political diatribe so quickly?

 

Middle East, that's how. I deleted all my posts.

[flyboy0681]

Just a question-

How did a nice "travel log" commentary degenerate into a biased political diatribe so quickly?

 

Not that difficult to figure out once you start reading the replies. It turned rather quickly.

[PTK]

If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel. - Benjamin Netanyahu

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Mier

When the ill winds blow, I will always stand with the Muslims. - Barak Obama

I think these quotes say more than anything I can say.

Arguably one can also say that peace can be achieved when the Israelis love peace more than land.

Peace is a universal need of all human kind.

[flyboy0681]

Arguably one can also say that peace can be achieved when the Israelis love peace more than land.

 

 

You need to study up on the Oslo Accords, in which Israel agreed to give up land. It was probably the best deal the Palestinians would ever get and met 90% of their demands, but it turned out they wanted all or nothing, so they walked away. Keep in mind this was the reason Rabin was assassinated, religious Jews thought he was giving up the entire store.

 

I don't know about you, but if I were negotiating with somebody and they agreed to 90% of my demands, I'd immediately have them sign the agreement while I'm licking my chops.

[PTK]

The Oslo Accords were doomed to fail. They talk about borders and Palestinian "autonomy" under the control of Israel.

They fell short of creating a Palestinian state with self determination.

 

I bet you if Netanyahu came up with a proposal tomorrow to give back to the Palestinians some of their land and let them create their nation it would be a game changer towards peace!

[flyboy0681]

The Oslo Accords were doomed to fail. They talk about borders and Palestinian "autonomy" under the control of Israel.

They fell short of creating a Palestinian state with self determination.

 

I bet you if Netanyahu came up with a proposal tomorrow to give back to the Palestinians some of their land and let them create their nation it would be a game changer towards peace!

 

I think the point in all of these threads is that there are some that say that the Palestinians should be allowed to have their land back and return home. To which I say, let's see how American's like having another violent Muslim country in the region.

 

That will go over real well.

[Guest]

I think the point in all of these threads is that there are some that say that the Palestinians should be allowed to have their land back and return home. To which I say, let's see how American's like having another violent Muslim country in the region.

 

That will go over real well.

What business does America really have in deciding how much land anyone is entitled to? The Jews and the Arabs should be locked in a room on bread and water until they come up with a solution. This would go over better for everyone involved.

Clarence

[flyboy0681]

What business does America really have in deciding how much land anyone is entitled to? 

Clarence

 

Frankly, I don't think the US or any of the other half dozen nations that were facilitating the talks had any say in the matter.

[Tommy]

Two words:

 

1st: religion

2nd: CHIMNEY!

 

When you get rid of both, the airport will stay...

[marks]

Perhaps one problem is that Isreal builds housing on land that even Isreal agrees does not belong to Isreal.  They call it "the occupied territories".  Maybe those territories would be a good place for an airport.  I also understand that just about half of all the Foreign Aid the United States gives to all the nations of the world goes to one country; Isreal.  Maybe some of that foreign aid could build an airport.  (only kidding)