Metal in the Oil Filter

[Yetti]

Are additives snake oil (or as Peter calls it, "scamguard")? Possibly.

Do I feel better when I add them? DEFINITELY.

 

I would say if your cam is made out of mild steel, it has the same conditions the testing was conducted under DIN 50017 humidity cabinet test (not sure why it would be so hard to do the same test with a cam shaft or what purified water has to do with the inside of an engine. also they use a sandblasted finish on the metal which is hugely different that a polished surface) and you believe that pitting of a cam shaft or lifter is what causes spalling and lobe failure in your cam,  Then by all means add what you believe will keep that from occurring.   The reality is these are mechanical devices and something will fail. Shearing the accessory drive pin results in the same tear down and cost.   Just the other day opened up to check for oil level.  Pow the pin came out of the latch hinge.  Would proper lubrication help?  Not sure. 

Enjoy flying your plane, you worked hard to get it change the oil often and fly some more.

[mike_elliott]

But it doesn't work!

Go tell folks like Ned that it works!

By the way, I have no beef with anyone. What's your beef with Aeroshell?

Is this your compelling evidence?

"...Blackstone Labs took a look for us across the board for wear metals in Lycoming O-360-A4Ms using CamGuard versus those that don’t (they can see CamGuard in the oil). The results were inconclusive..."

Inconclusive is far from compelling!

This is compelling to me:

"...Once again, our tests showed that Exxon Elite and AeroShell 15W50 were the top performers in preventing corrosion. Our experiments show that Elite enjoyed a slight margin over AeroShell, which tends to support Exxon’s claim that its tests showed superior corrosion protection over other oils. However, the advantage is slight enough that we consider the two essentially equal."

 It is my understanding that Ed Kollin, (the guy you ripped a new one last year, Peter), was one of the development engineers for Exxon Elite. I had heard the additive package he wanted to put into exxon elite was similar to what camguard now is, but the resultant added expense made the finish product a bit on the expensive side to be marketed according to the beankeepers, so they went with a lesser package in the Exxon elite.

Please correct me if I have this info wrong, as I am sure someone will.

[Guest]

Over the years I've had a number of old camshafts (which were removed from engines due to spalled lifters) sitting in a Rubbermaid tub under my work bench. They have had all of the oil washed off and have been used as training aids for apprentices and visiting pilots.

In all years they have never grown fuzzy rust, despite being handled many times and being in humid southern Ontario air. Clearly the atmosphere within the engine is different than under my work bench.

I believe the failure mode is corroded lifter faces, which ultimately grind the lobe down, both are the source of ferrous metal found in filters.

Clarence

[KSMooniac]

I sure wish someone would use a modern coating for the lifters and/or cam lobes that would prevent all of these failure modes.  I believe there are some pretty slick coatings being used in the firearms world and many other industries with metal-to-metal interfaces.  If I were flying an experimental I would probably just choose one and get it done myself...

[ryoder]

I am starting to think engine longevity is luck.

I fly the plane, change the oil, and top it off when it is low.

I use regular oil.  100W that I get from my IA.  I have 2530 hours and counting SNEW.  Wish me luck.

[Sabremech]

I have 1850 SMOH and no Camguard.

[Shadrach]

I have 1850 SMOH and no Camguard.

 

I am starting to think engine longevity is luck.

I fly the plane, change the oil, and top it off when it is low.

I use regular oil.  100W that I get from my IA.  I have 2530 hours and counting SNEW.  Wish me luck.

calendar time?

[Sabremech]

A long time.

[N601RX]

But it doesn't work!

Go tell folks like Ned that it works!."

I suspose the same argument could be made of tooth paste and dentist. You can use both regularly and still have cavities.

[Tommy]

I suspose the same argument could be made of tooth paste and dentist. You can use both regularly and still have cavities.

 

That's right! It's called genetics! One big factor that is beyond your control. Same applies to engine. The genetics of an engine is its metallurgy. It is determined from the day the material is sourced to the day the engine is mounted on the plane! 

[PTK]

I suspose the same argument could be made of tooth paste and dentist. You can use both regularly and still have cavities.

No!

[Guest]

I have 1850 SMOH and no Camguard.

How many years ago was your overhaul? I have a client with a Comanche that has 800 hours since last overhaul. The camshaft in his engine did 1950 on the engine before that. It would seem metallurgy is important.

Clarence

[PTK]

It is my understanding that Ed Kollin, (the guy you ripped a new one last year, Peter), was one of the development engineers for Exxon Elite. I had heard the additive package he wanted to put into exxon elite was similar to what camguard now is, but the resultant added expense made the finish product a bit on the expensive side to be marketed according to the beankeepers, so they went with a lesser package in the Exxon elite.

Please correct me if I have this info wrong, as I am sure someone will.

You're correct Mike. And he got another new one ripped by some folks over at Beechtalk around the same time for the same reason.

[mike_elliott]

You're correct Mike. And he got another new one ripped by some folks over at Beechtalk around the same time for the same reason.

And did they do this with data proving the chemical additive package of Exxon Elite and Camguard did NOTHING to help the longevity or prevent corrosion, or did they just attack? Some Beech owners are outstanding pilots and people, some are special needs, kind of like our group. 

Ed will present a wings credit seminar at the Mooney Summit III on Engine lubrication, not "why camguard", We will not allow this or any session to become a forum to disrespect, attack or vilify any of the Subject Matter Experts or other attendee. The fact that he and all of the SME's are donating their time at their expense to share their expertise with us will demand our utmost appreciation and respect, in spite of our personal views.

[N201MKTurbo]

Is it possible that the spalling has nothing to do with rust? In the few engines I've torn down that have spalling, it is usually limited to a few lobes and lifters, the rest looked fine. What saved the good lobes and lifters? They all lived in the same atmosphere.

I have seen cams that were severely worn without spalling.

Rust may have something to do with it, but I don't think it is the only cause.

[N201MKTurbo]

Searching the web it looks like contact fatigue can cause spalling. This could happen if the lifter didn't stay in constant contact with the cam and suffered high stress when it landed. Weak valve springs or stuck valves could also cause the high stresses that can cause spalling.

I've seen statements by respected aviation people who say that all spalling is caused by corrosion. I tend to think there may be more to it then that.

I was just looking at a Continental service bulletin that showed rust pitted cams and lifters that were not spalled. They say they are serviceable. So rust doesn't always lead to spalling.

[ryoder]

My 2530 hour engine is right at 50 years since new. The case has never been cracked. It had a top overhaul at around 1200 with 50mm valves but that was 30 years ago.

[DonMuncy]

You're correct Mike. And he got another new one ripped by some folks over at Beechtalk around the same time for the same reason.

So my hypothetical wasn't so hypothetical after all.

[AndyFromCB]

Searching the web it looks like contact fatigue can cause spalling. This could happen if the lifter didn't stay in constant contact with the cam and suffered high stress when it landed. Weak valve springs or stuck valves could also cause the high stresses that can cause spalling.

I've seen statements by respected aviation people who say that all spalling is caused by corrosion. I tend to think there may be more to it then that.

I was just looking at a Continental service bulletin that showed rust pitted cams and lifters that were not spalled. They say they are serviceable. So rust doesn't always lead to spalling.

That's exactly what my cam and lifters were like at 1600 hours. There is a picture of them somewhere on the board. Only two lobes and lifters were screwed, rest were fine.

[Cyril Gibb]

If I were faced with a $30K-$40K bill to fix a spalled cam/lifter, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be the end of my flying days.

Perhaps others are in the same position. Lycoming, Continental, flying organisations like AOPA and COPA, GA aircraft manufacturers and anyone else concerned about the future of GA should be as concerned.

Surely with all those combined resources there could be a concerted effort to find out the causes and solution to this problem?

Lots of "summer" cars sit on blocks during the winter without cam problems... Same as "winter-beaters" I used to store behind a buddys barn from April to December. Fresh gas, charge the battery, clean out the bird and squirrel nests and drive away.

I think this would be an opportunity for AOPA to pull something together. They have the clout, and they'd be viewed as independant and impartial.

I think the time for talk is over.

[jetdriven]

But it doesn't work!

Go tell folks like Ned that it works!

By the way, I have no beef with anyone. What's your beef with Aeroshell?

Is this your compelling evidence?

"...Blackstone Labs took a look for us across the board for wear metals in Lycoming O-360-A4Ms using CamGuard versus those that don’t (they can see CamGuard in the oil). The results were inconclusive..."

Inconclusive is far from compelling!

This is compelling to me:

"...Once again, our tests showed that Exxon Elite and AeroShell 15W50 were the top performers in preventing corrosion. Our experiments show that Elite enjoyed a slight margin over AeroShell, which tends to support Exxon’s claim that its tests showed superior corrosion protection over other oils. However, the advantage is slight enough that we consider the two essentially equal."

Oh it does work. It doesn't prevent all corrosion, but it certainly lessens it. 4 or is it 5 now, tests show it significantly boosts corrosion resistance when added to oils. And further, since you are so hot on accusations and proof, why don't you prove to me that Ned's engine wouldn't have failed sooner if not for Camguard? Can you prove that the additive made no difference?

I find it interesting you took two sentences from the oldest report (2005) and ignored the two newest ones which have a lot more testing and a lot more data.

Funny the title of the article you took your shot from was titled "In our brutal salt-mist test, Exxon Elite and Aeroshell 15W50 were best at stopping rust. CamGuard additive improved performance of all the oils."

I think most people who can read can understand what's going on here.

[DaV8or]

Is it possible that the spalling has nothing to do with rust? In the few engines I've torn down that have spalling, it is usually limited to a few lobes and lifters, the rest looked fine. What saved the good lobes and lifters? They all lived in the same atmosphere.

I have seen cams that were severely worn without spalling.

Rust may have something to do with it, but I don't think it is the only cause.

 

That's what the folks that sell the drilled cams say. They claim it has very little to do with corrosion but rather poor lubrication during some times during the operating cycle. It may be both IMO. Your observation is valid. Why don't we see uniform failures all up and down the same cam?

[DaV8or]

My 2530 hour engine is right at 50 years since new. The case has never been cracked. It had a top overhaul at around 1200 with 50mm valves but that was 30 years ago.

 

What are 50mm valves? Is that some sort of upgrade? You definitely have one of the really good engines. My engine is about the same age, but it's been apart and rebuilt four times in the time. The first time was to comply with a crankshaft AD, once due to bad piloting and twice due to engine failure. It has never yet made TBO. You might want to check your logs. Your engine might not be in compliance with that crank AD.

[DaV8or]

If I were faced with a $30K-$40K bill to fix a spalled cam/lifter, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be the end of my flying days.

Perhaps others are in the same position. Lycoming, Continental, flying organisations like AOPA and COPA, GA aircraft manufacturers and anyone else concerned about the future of GA should be as concerned.

Surely with all those combined resources there could be a concerted effort to find out the causes and solution to this problem?

Lots of "summer" cars sit on blocks during the winter without cam problems... Same as "winter-beaters" I used to store behind a buddys barn from April to December. Fresh gas, charge the battery, clean out the bird and squirrel nests and drive away.

I think this would be an opportunity for AOPA to pull something together. They have the clout, and they'd be viewed as independant and impartial.

I think the time for talk is over.

 

I agree it would be nice to have a definitive study on what really goes wrong rather than just field mechanic speculation. However, if you do some research on the engine oil issue, you'll find that automotive engines use a completely different engine oil with very different additives. That is largely why they can sit for very long periods without much internal corrosion damage. Those oils are completely unsuitable for our air cooled airplane engines and if you start using automotive oil in them, it eventually ends very badly. Many have tried and suffered the results.

[Marauder]

I blame this all on the Bethlehem Steel Corporation. Back then we made real steel. Today we buy inferior metal.

I worked in the steel mills while going to college. You see what we buy today, and for those of us who worked the metal, you know there is a difference (unless it is speciality steel).

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