To Buy a Mooney or ..

[Dan]

My training is over and I am looking forward to do some flying. The question is now what to do.. buy a Mooney, buy a slow Cessna and build some time, rent a slow Cessna. I am a bit hesitant now to buy a low wing complex aircraft right out of the gate. My CFII has recommended a C172 as a first airplane to build some time.  I wonder about this and wonder what others think of this idea.

I would also keep whatever I buy in a grass strip  (for the summer months) which is not flat. There are bumps and slight hills and at times the C150 I fly kind of jumps up a bit when I hit these. Not sure the Mooney gear would like this so much. I would like to solicit opinions about this.  My CFII has a bonanza that lands there and has been for years and years. He and others who fly it have no issues landing there.

What to do...

Dan

[jax88]

I'll offer advice on the first topic, buying a low wing, complex aircraft after doing your training in high wing trainers.

All of my training leading up to my PPL was in C-172s of varying years.  When I decided that I would purchase an aircraft of my own, I consulted the owner of a local flight school that has several hundred hours in Mooney aircraft of all types.  His advice was that the transition from high wing trainers to Mooney aircraft is no big deal.  He followed that up with the advice to purchase nothing beyond a K model, and suggested that the best fit would probably be a 201 or pre-201 model.

I purchased F model before having ever flown in any Mooney aircraft.  I did my transition training with an instructor familiar with my aircraft, then hopped in and flew it home from South Carolina to Texas.  It took me exactly 50 hours of flying my F model to start wishing I had purchased a 231 or 252.  Point being, with proper training and practice, you can easily manage the landing speeds of a Mooney.

That being said, you should consider your anticipated flight profile before deciding what type of aircraft to purchase.  If you will spend most of your flight time in your local area at lower altitudes just enjoying the view and the ability to break the bounds of gravity, then a Mooney may not be your best bet.  If you intend to use your aircraft for cross country flying, the efficiency of a Mooney is hard to beat (for the price).  If you intend to spend hours at a time in your aircraft with more than one passenger, that raises another issue altogether, space.

To summarize, don't let the speed of a Mooney scare you, speed is a good thing when managed properly.  However, consider your typical flight profile and find the aircraft that comes closest to meeting the needs of your typical flight profile.  A 180 knot Mooney with turbo and oxygen doesn't do much good when flying circles above the homestead at 3000'.

[KSMooniac]

It will be much cheaper in the long run to go right for the plane you want to own, and with proper instruction you should have no trouble moving into a Mooney.  Yes, you'll pay more for insurance in the first year, but that is much less than the transaction costs of buying a time-builder, fixing squawks, flying for a year, and then repeating the process with a Mooney or whatever you decide to buy.  You can negotiate with an insurance broker too, and perhaps offer up 20 hours of dual before you solo it in exchange for a better rate.  You can use 5-10 hours learning to fly and land it, and the remainder can be used towards an instrument rating.  Getting the IR will reduce insurance costs temendously and increase the utility of your license.

Regarding the grass strip, I'm not found of running a Mooney on grass but many people do.  If the strip is rough enough to launch a Cessna then I wouldn't put a Mooney there at all due to the low prop clearance and limited suspension travel of the landing gear.  Bonanzas have much greater ability to soak up bumps in their gear.  Insurance will also be much higher if based on grass.  If the strip can be smoothed out then it might be OK, but from your description I wouldn't do it.

Figure out what is important to you in terms of grass ability, XC ability, etc. and then go plane shopping.  Buy what you need and skip the time-builder as it will cost you a lot in the end.  Find a great transition instructor and don't look back!

[trjymr]

Hey Dan I was kinda in the same situation as you.  I have about 70 total hours now, 20 or so have been in the last 2 months since I bought a '65 M20E.  I never really enjoyed the Cessna trainers that I flew so never really considered buying one, but that was my only option for renting and building time.  Finance wise I couldnt afford a 201 or a 252 so I went with an E model and I dont regret it one bit.  I do agree with jax88 though it wont take long and youll be thinking man I wish I had an even faster Mooney.  The way I look at it though, I have something to shoot for in the future.

If you can afford to go with a 201 or even bigger, dont be scared just be patient.  You might spend a few more hours with an instructor but youll get it down eventually.

Thats my 2 cents anyways

[Skywarrior]

Hi, Dan -

If you can afford to base your new plane at Hayward, then go for a Mooney. You will tire of a relatively slow plane very quickly.

If you use your new plane for business, you will appreciate being able to bring prospects to see a boat without the trip taking forever, and forcing an overnight stay for them.

If you plan to use that grass strip a lot, you will be risking takeoff/landing accidents, because of the gear.

If you need to cross the Sierras, you'll need a plane that can go high, and still have enough climb ability, once there, to overcome downdrafts, etc.

If you just want to leisurely sightsee over central/northern California, and don't want a lot of speed, something like a 172 will be fine.

 

Chuck M.

[Barry]

If you run your Mooney @ 19 squared, you will get the speed of a Cessna 172 with the fuel burn of a 152.

[Immelman]

I would not hesitate to buy a Mooney as a first airplane, coming out of a trainer. Get a good instructor and check-out and you'll be fine. 172s make great rental airplanes....but I would not want to own one unless I were operating it as a rental.

With that said - I would not be comfortable basing my Mooney on grass - especially rough grass. Were it silky smooth, rolled to perfection, and without the bumps then maybe (I do take my Mooney to such a runway on occasion without any problems).

[MooneyMitch]

Hi Dan.

My 2 cents too.  I concur with all of the previous advice regarding the Mooney vs. the C172.  If you can mitigate the bumpy grass strip issue, then by all means go for the Mooney.  You will not be disappointed. 

Probably many of us trained in the beloved Cessna 150/152/ 172 and they are indeed excellent aircraft.  The Mooney is a great airplane with much better speed and efficiency.   I bought my first Mooney without every previously flying one.  I just knew it was for me.  If you have access to a Mooney, work a deal for a test ride.

In fact, if you can make your way down to the Central Coast of CA, we'll take you up!

[Skywarrior]

Quote: Dan

My training is over and I am looking forward to do some flying. The question is now what to do.. buy a Mooney, buy a slow Cessna and build some time, rent a slow Cessna. I am a bit hesitant now to buy a low wing complex aircraft right out of the gate. My CFII has recommended a C172 as a first airplane to build some time.  I wonder about this and wonder what others think of this idea.

I would also keep whatever I buy in a grass strip  (for the summer months) which is not flat. There are bumps and slight hills and at times the C150 I fly kind of jumps up a bit when I hit these. Not sure the Mooney gear would like this so much. I would like to solicit opinions about this.  My CFII has a bonanza that lands there and has been for years and years. He and others who fly it have no issues landing there.

What to do...

Dan

[Hank]

Dan--

I bought my C-model just 36 days after my PPL checkride, having just my temporary paper and a whopping 62 hours in my logbook, all in Skyhawks. A few transition flights to get the feel of landing [much more ground effect, the wing root is barely knee-high off the pavement] and learn how to slow down, and things have been great ever since.

Advice:

1) It can be done easily and well. Just get a good instructor and learn to fly the numbers. All pattern speeds MUST be EXACTLY what is shown in the POH if you want to land; +5 mph and you will get a good, close view of the airport gliding by just below you, and you'll have to push everything forward and try again.

2) Check insurance first. I had a hard time getting insured, even as an owner, due to low time. Finally found $omone to take me on a$ an acceptable ri$k. Expect $ome required dual in$truction; some insurers will require 15-20 hours dual, some will have an addition 5-15 hours solo time before taking passengers.

3) Plan to fly AT LEAST 100 HOURS before your insurance renews. With 100 hrs Mooney time, my rate$ dropped by half.

4) When I finally finished up my Instrument Rating, my rates dropped another 25%.

Skip buying a time-builder and start looking instead for a plane that meets your mission profile and is in good mechanical condition. There are threads on this site about what to look for in a Pre-J Mooney--study the advice there if a Mooney is suitable to your needs. Keep flying while you search, as more than 100 hours total time will help with your first year's insurance.

One last bit of advice:  go to ride in a Mooney. Some people fit better than others, as the seating position is more sports car than sedan, and is very different from a Cessna seating position. I like it, but I also sit similarly in my car. Al Mooney has been described as designing planes to fit people with his own tall, slim build. I'm 5-11 and 185, hardly slim, but long legs help. The panel is sort of close, too. Short bodies [b, C, D, E & G] have little back seat leg room, but I've taken three adults to ride up to 2 hours at a time with little complaint. They wanted to reach our destination without an all-day drive . . .

[carusoam]

80 hrs in cessna for ppl training....Bought M20C

more hrs in cessna for IFR training....Bought M20R

If it meets your mission, have no fear in selecting a mooney as your steed. 

Good luck identifying your mission....especially what it will look like 10 years from now.....

as for grass,

I only taxi on grass.  I am not that smooth a pilot to be confident landing on grass.....4 out of 5 landings are smooth.  The one I put on grass will probably be #5, seems like it might be expensive.

For good grass experience.  Look up Bryan Painter and his photo gallery.....  He probably has a "No Fear" decal on his M20C.

-a-

[Theo]

Quote: carusoam

  Look up Bryan Painter and his photo gallery.....  He probably has a "No Fear" decal on his M20C.

 

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: Theo

 Or, check out some of his videos on Youtube. He puts his Mooney into strips I would think twice about riding a mule on! His shortfield technique is flawless. And I love that new red paint job .....

[Dan]

Some good advice here.  Thanks everyone. Its a bit sad to think keeping a Mooney at the local grass strip is a bad idea, but  I think I knew this. Its the closest strip, no fee to tiedown.

I was fortuante enough to get up in a J model a few months ago. Very nice, smooth and more importantly I got a the nod of approval from the other half..

Dan 

 

[carusoam]

 "I got a the nod of approval from the other half.."

[1] Damn the torpedos....Full speed ahead captain!   

[2] Hit while the iron is hot!

[3] Of course you want her to feel this way, after you have made the purchase too...the other half will appreciate paved runways for awhile.....Along with clear skies and no bumps.....

Grass can wait.  At least until you answer the question from your own experience.

-a-

[Mcstealth]

"Finally found $omone to take me on a$ an acceptable ri$k. Expect $ome required dual in$truction;"

 

har har....

[Jeff_S]

We're all Mooney owners so most of us will say "go for it!"  But at the risk of sounding wishy-washy, no one will either be right or wrong, it's just that we've all had personal experiences. I bought a great Piper Warrior right out of my PPL and used that to get my IFR and flew it for about 400 hours, even all the way to Denver and up to OSH. I had it tricked out a little bit so I could reliably get 125 KTAS, but once my wife decided flying was a good way to get around I knew I could get the Mooney I always dreamed of.

So when I transitioned into a complex airplane with a market value of 3x my Warrior, the flying part of the transition was easy. Even though I knew it was coming, the tripling of insurance rates and property tax took my breath away a bit. I know those will both come back down, but it's just something to consider. On the other hand, the smile I get dodging my Mooney in between the popcorn clouds on a summer day at 160 KTAS is well worth it.

Others have really said it before: think about your mission and get the plane that suits it. I do think running off a bumpy grass strip increases the odds of fuel-tank leaks and even a prop strike, depending on what kind of Mooney it is. But others seem to accept these risks and deal with them.

[Hank]

Ju$t trying to give my hone$t impre$$ion$ to the new guy.

Price insurance for your plane, with 62 hours total time, 0 complex. It'll flat stop your laugh . . . But I was determined, and my check had already been cashed. At least it didn't STAY high, that would have killed me. Now I'm at 400 hours with an IR, and it's downright reasonable.

[jmills]

/incoming 2 cents with plenty-o-change

I was in a similar situation. I had 80 hours in Cessna 150s, 152s, and 172s and got my ticket in '94. Stopped flying shortly thereafter in '96. Got back into flying earlier this year after 14 year hiatus. Went to buy a plane (personal and business reasons).  I was, like you, leaning towards a 172... simple and a *known* factor to me.

Started asking around on the AOPA boards, the Purple Board, and this board. Most folks told me to examine my mission, and "buy my 'second' plane, first"; i.e. buy what I planned on getting into not "work my way up". I, like you, had no retrac time, limited constant speed prop time, and zero low wing time. I was apprehensive about buying a Mooney. Ken Reed (KLRDMD) took me for a ride, and I was sold on a Mooney. Responsive. Smooth. Fast. Efficient. What more should a plane do!?! Not to mention, I fit just fine! (I'm 6'3" 250lbs).

Six weeks after flying with Ken, I bought N401RK (a '90 M20J). Very happy I did. I have put more than 60 hours on her since picking the plane up in May of this year.   With zero complex, zero time in type and only 80 hours (earned 14 years earlier), my insurance was not cheap but (to me) wasn't unobtainably outrageous. It was 'bout $2100 for the year with a $120k hull value, $ 1 mil policy, $100k per passenger. Required 10 hours dual instruction, and 5 hours solo before carrying passengers. Policy also allows anyone, other than me with 500 hours and 25 hours of M20J time, to act as PIC.

I have no experience with grass/dirt landings in the mooney, so I can't opine/muse on that topic.

Good luck!!!

PS If you haven't noticed you're not going to find a plane that balances speed and efficiency like a Mooney. So if high speed, and low fuel burn is important to you (it was me considering my intended mission), this is a plane to seriously consider.

[KSMooniac]

Even if your insurance in Year One is $5000, that will be cheaper than finding, buying, fixing, and selling a "starter plane" and repeating the process on a Mooney.

[danb35]

Speaking of insurance, I bought '48Q in early 2008 as a 75-hour private pilot with 1.5 complex (the test flight before I signed the papers), no instrument rating.  For a value of $66k, the premium was ~$1800, and required 15 hours of dual before I soloed, and 10 hours of solo before I had passengers.  The insurance was underwritten by AIG (now Chartis) through AOPA insurance.  Avemco quoted nearly double the premium for the same coverage.

I was tied down at a Class C airport nearby, not on grass, which may have had an effect, but just wanted to give some actual numbers for consideration.

[DaV8or]

I'd like to offer an alternative. I agree with others that you really need to define your needs before thinking of buying. I might suggest holding off on buying a plane right now and get your IR in rental planes. Since you'll be in Alameda, I would suggest doing it at Oakland Flyers. They have a couple of Warriors, an Archer, an Arrow IV and a Frasca 142 simulator. The advantages are:

Oakland is a great place to get your IR. You always fly with ATC anyways, so lots of radio practice and we have a marine layer here much of the year. You will get actual. It's warm enough here that the freezing level is usually high enough that you can still go.

You'll want the IR anyways and IMO, doing it in a Warrior would much easier that in a Mooney, paticularly if you end up with a Mooney that has the "shotgun" panel like mine does. There's a lot going on in an instrument approach and when you're first learning, it helps not to have to worry about cowl flaps, landing gear, prop settings, slowing the plane way down and engine manangement on an engine you own.

They have a certified simulator. It saves a lot of money, time and it's logable.

Between the Warriors and Arrow, your transition time will be like mine was, nothing.

When you're done with ticket in hand, you'll have more hours, complex time and an IR. This will make you much more pleasing to the insurance companies.

 

Having said all that, I would seriously consider how important grass strip flying is to you. If the backwoods, outback adventure is what kind of excites you, then I would suggest following the same plan above, but do your training in the Skyhawk, get time in their Skylane. Then consider a tailwheel endorsement (they can do that too, they have a Citabria) and then maybe get a 180.

[legallegend]

I got my PPL in May.  Since then I have flown mostly XC and have done an 8 lesson aerobatics course.  I need to go back and do 1 more lesson to get the tailwheen endorsement.  Apparently 8 landings is not enough.  My plan is to start IR training later this month in a rental Turbo Arrow III.  This will be more expensive than doing it in a 172, but I will get my IR and conplex sign off and will then be able to rent the Arrow.   It is not where I intend to end up, but it is better than a 172.  More importantly, the complex time will reduce the insurance required transition time and should decrease my initial premium.  I am lucky in that this is not a flight school, more like a club.  Less than 10 people fly the plane.  Less than 5 fly it with any regularity and that is still infrequent.  This will suit my needs until I want to take on the expense of ownership.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: jax88

It took me exactly 50 hours of flying my F model to start wishing I had purchased a 231 or 252.  

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Hank

Short bodies [b, C, D, E & G] have little back seat leg room, but I've taken three adults to ride up to 2 hours at a time with little complaint.