new pilot looking to upgrade planes

[Marauder]

cool to hear so many of you did similar jumps from Cherokee to mooney. Makes me feel a little more at ease about it to hear others did it successfully. Re speed management: I guess I better start working on that now. The Cherokee is so forgiving about speed at landing that I probably haven't focused on speed as much as I should but I will start working on that to see if I can tighten things up. Regardless of what I trade up to... speed management is always a good thing.

I re-read thru the responses this morning and really appreciate all the great advice. Honestly, I think I could be happy with a C, E, or F model. Granted it will be tight in the back but like someone else shared... I'd say 90% of my flying will be solo or just wife and me. Now if I can find a good deal on an F model... it does give that extra space for the back seat which would be nice. The key for me is finding a plane with a good useful load and a mid time engine. So my ideal plane would have at least 940lbs and a mid time engine. I am not too wrapped up in fancy panels... just need a basic IFR capable plane and my Cherokee has a garmin 496 which I really like (will probably move to the new plane).

So now for the grind of watching the adds. Finding a good deal on a plane is a pain. It took me almost 6 months to find my Cherokee and I did prebuys on two planes that I ended up rejecting before buying my current plane. It was worth the hassle though and my Cherokee has been a great one. Buying a plane is a big decision and this next one will probably be the last I ever buy so want to find a great one.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I also have the piper archer II on my short list. Not as fast as the mooneys but fixed gear plane with useful load over 1000lbs and cruse of 125knots. The selling point for an archer is it is basically just a bigger and faster Cherokee so a simple transition and cheap to maintain. I'll be watching adds for both and get the best plane I can for the money. Oh and one final thing... a customer of mine in west texas has owned a mooney for years and he has already told me that a mooney is my best choice

I think what you will find is that most F models will have at least 940 in useful load. My 1975 F has 962 (compliments of a recent 2 pound weight reduction from removing an old blind encoder and heavier transponder). I would look around a bit for an F. They are out there and many, like mine have been upgraded a bit. You will find a number of Mooney owners who take pride in ownership and try to be good stewards of a great plane.

[oldrockfan]

Are there some good things I should be aware of when it comes to looking at planes as good or bad issues? Is there a place where the mods are described as whether they are good or bad, etc. I see lots of planes that have 3 blade props for example. Is that a good thing or bad thing? I also see C and E model planes that have electric gear... good or bad?

[gsxrpilot]

Are there some good things I should be aware of when it comes to looking at planes as good or bad issues? Is there a place where the mods are described as whether they are good or bad, etc. I see lots of planes that have 3 blade props for example. Is that a good thing or bad thing? I also see C and E model planes that have electric gear... good or bad?

Now you've gone and opened the can and worms are all over everywhere... 

 

I made a wish list for my plane shopping, (send me a PM and I'll share it with you). Down at the bottom of the list was a two blade prop.  I think the three blade is a little funny looking on the short body C, and I think it costs a knot or two in speed, but I hear the climb is better. I want all the speed I can get as its a C and only 180 hp. So I wanted a two blade, but it was last on the wishlist.  I love my manual gear. The electric gear has a higher speed range, but I LOVE the manual gear.  There's never a question of are they down or up. And I think overhaul is much cheaper, and maintenance is simple.

[Raptor05121]

From what little knowledge I have, I heard the 3 blade prop you lose a couple knots in cruise speed but it is also a heck of a lot quieter. My instructor has a Comanche with a 3-blade and he says he doesn't need headsets to fly. But this has been an interesting read. I also own a 140 (still in PPL training) and I am thinking of jumping to a M20J here in the next <5 years.

[Bob_Belville]

Are there some good things I should be aware of when it comes to looking at planes as good or bad issues? Is there a place where the mods are described as whether they are good or bad, etc. I see lots of planes that have 3 blade props for example. Is that a good thing or bad thing? I also see C and E model planes that have electric gear... good or bad?

Props: You will get some disagreement but I believe most folks here would prefer two blade props on these 4 cylinder Lycomings. (3 blades might be preferred on 6 cylinder Lycomings.) Ideal is probably the newer Hartzell Scimitar Top Prop. (There's a recurring 100 hour AD inspection on the older props.) But if you find a nice plane with a 3 blade I would not think that would be thought a big deal, performance is very similar.)

 

Gear: Most here would agree the manual Johnson Bar is less costly to maintain. Again, most would not reject a nice plane with the electric gear.

 

Other issues: Vintage Mooneys had "wet wing" fuel tanks. Most have leaked by now and repairs will vary. This is definitely an item to study carefully as resealing or switching to O&N bladders will cost several thousand AMU. (An AMU is a Aircraft Money Unit = 1000USD.) Some of these planes may have corrosion, particularly if they've lived on a tiedown in a humid environment. A PPI (pre-purchase inspection) should include checking a couple of critical areas. In extreme circumstances of corrosion to the spar repair costs might be 10 AMU or more and might scrap the plane. Search for threads here for the scary details. Many here will recommend a PPI by a Mooney savvy A&P or MSC (Mooney Service Center) as necessary.

 

Mods: The most common and desirable are aerodynamic clean ups of these vintage models: 201 style windshield, 201 cowl, gap seals @ several points, reverse brake calipers, oil filter relocate, Powerflow Exhaust...

 

Panel: Vintage Mooneys had a shotgun instrument layout which will be readily apparent -- a brown wood grain panel. Many have been upgraded. There's a lot of money difference in these area but not particularly Mooney specific.

[Bob_Belville]

I posted this log entry on another thread yesterday. It will give you an idea of what is, or was in 1997, available and would be nice to find that a previous owner had done. I certainly was very please that someone else spent this money on my M20E!

 

Aircraft modified by the following STCs:

1)  Oil cooler relocated by Lake Style Aero STC SA2513NM

2)  Fiberglass nose cowl by AeroResources Inc  STC SA7589SW

3) Mooney 201 M20J Spinner & spinner bulkhead assys from Aero Resources Inc STC SA7589SW

4) Speed brakes by Precise Flight Inc STC SA5708NM

5)  Standby Vacuum System III by Precise Flight Inc, STC SA2168NM

6)  Mooney Bladder Tank 6 bay system by O&N Aircraft Modifications Inc STC SA2350CE

7)  Dorsal Fin Fairing by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

8)  Tail Root Fairing Horizontal by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

9)  Wheel well liner covers by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

10)  Wing Root Leading Edge Fairing by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

11)  Relocated Cleveland wheel brake assys by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

12  Hinge cover on Aileron, Elevator, & Rudder assy by Lake Aero Styling , STC SA4443NM

13)  Aileron lower gap seals by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

14)  Flap gap seals by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

15) One piece fiberglass belly pan fairing with skid runners by Aero Mod Inc, STC SA4080NM

16)  Instrument panel by SW Texas Aviation, STC SA7828SW 

[rbridges]

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I also have the piper archer II on my short list. Not as fast as the mooneys but fixed gear plane with useful load over 1000lbs and cruse of 125knots. The selling point for an archer is it is basically just a bigger and faster Cherokee so a simple transition and cheap to maintain. I'll be watching adds for both and get the best plane I can for the money. Oh and one final thing... a customer of mine in west texas has owned a mooney for years and he has already told me that a mooney is my best choice

 

have you considered a 200hp arrow?  the ones made after 72 (ish?) have stretched fuselages.  Speed will be slower than a mooney but faster than an archer or cherokee.  Probably would meet your requirements for useful load and range.

[Tmack1]

If you looking for bang for the buck and room the F in my opinion is it I have a 68 with electric gear and with full fuel (64gal) useful is 718 knock off the top 14 and you got 802 now this will go up as I'm doing a large upgrade to the panel and the plane at 3000 agl flies about 140 knots and I'm 6'4" 250 lbs and I haul 4 all the time

[Parker_Woodruff]

 

So now for the grind of watching the adds. Finding a good deal on a plane is a pain. It took me almost 6 months to find my Cherokee and I did prebuys on two planes that I ended up rejecting before buying my current plane. It was worth the hassle though and my Cherokee has been a great one. Buying a plane is a big decision and this next one will probably be the last I ever buy so want to find a great one.

 

It really doesn't have to be this hard.

 

There are plenty of Mooneys in the model range you are looking for.  Many of them are well taken care of, many of them are not.  You live in the heart of Mooney country with Don Maxwell Aviation in east Texas available for pre-purchase inspections.

 

As long as your purchase agreement makes you responsible for the pre-buy labor and the seller responsible for any airworthiness issues, you have a proper agreement.  If the seller won't let it go to Maxwell for a prebuy/annual, then the seller probably has reservations about how well the aircraft has been maintained.

 

If the seller walks, he's on the hook for the prebuy labor.

 

This has been the case in both my Mooney purchases and both sellers have agreed that I should be taking delivery of an airworthy airplane.

 

Plenty of Mooneys for sale around here.  If you need help sorting through them, getting one delivered, insured, and learning to fly it, feel free to give me a buzz

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard TMAck!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Nobody seems to transition to Cherokees AFTER being a Mooney pilot.....?

-a-

[Mooneymite]

When I bought my C, the seller had both a C and an F for sale.  I had my choice; the F was 10K more and I went with the C.

 

No regrets.  I knew that 90% of my flying would be solo, or with my wife.  Very occasionally, I've flown with three passengers and other than the clowns-in-the-phone-booth ingress/egress (which is pretty much the same for the C, or the F), it is very doable once the front seat passengers pull their seats forward, there's enough room.  However, the bottom line is to buy a plane that meets 90% of your flying.  If you need to carry 4 and lots of weight, rent a plane for those trips.

 

Over the years, things that I didn't think much about before I bought turned out to be advantages of a later year C model:

 

*  Carbureted engine....simple, cheap to overhaul, reliable, and always starts easily....no dreaded hot starts.

*  Electric gear....fast, easy, no technique reqired.  There's a 100 hr. AD that I do myself and have my IA sign off.  Never had an issue.

*  Electric flaps....higher flap speeds and it doesn't break the aft spar stub if you over-speed them.

*  Bladder tanks....in 17 years, not a hint of a fuel leak.  I operate off of grass, so this has been pretty important to me.

*  Overall investment is lower, but you get all those "Mooney advantages".

*  Lots of very affordable used parts available for the C should you ever need any.

 

The C is a great basic airplane.  Owning a C will make you an honorary member of the CB club since it's pretty obvious you're a guy who demands the most bang for the buck!

[mooniac15u]

Nobody seems to transition to Cherokees AFTER being a Mooney pilot.....?

-a-

Several have tried but they gave up after being unable to locate the prop and gear controls.

[wishboneash]

Mooneys demand a good control of airspeed on landing. Know your final approach speeds and practice slowing down. If you can do that, they are easy to fly and land. I transitioned from an Archer and had no problems. Avoid touch and goes if possible and go easy on the brakes. If you nail your speeds, you will have no problem landing on strips as short as 1500 - 2000 ft long. On the electric gear planes like the J one can slow down quickly by dropping gear at or below ~130 knots a few miles away from the airport (traffic and ATC permitting). Good luck!

[smccray]

I bought my M20J 3 years ago about 6 months after I completed my PPL with about 80 hrs total time.  I did my training in a 172, but I imagine the transition is similar moving to a Mooney from a Piper.  The one mistake I think I made was not starting instrument training sooner. With only 10 hrs of instrument training the accuracy of my flying increased considerably.  I flew my plane for 18 months so I was very comfortable when I started my instrument training, but I should have started sooner.

 

I had 2 big challenges- 1st is accuracy, particularly with speed.  The Mooney needs to be flown accurately.  Second, and more difficult but easier to transition is thinking at 150 knots instead of 110 knots.  Everything happens faster.  I'm only at 350 hours total time so I don't consider myself an authority, but I think the Mooney was a reasonable step up.  It wasn't a simple transition like moving to a 182, but it wasn't unreasonable.  Insurance required 15 hrs of instruction plus 10 hrs solo and it took that for me to feel comfortable. 

 

Something to remember- owning a plane is a completely different set of skills/knowledge than flying.  It's fun, and I doubt you'll find many here who would discourage you from doing it, but know what you're getting into.  Cost is considerable- the purchase price is the cheap part.  If you loose the engine 5 hours after you complete the purchase it's a $30,000 bill.  It's highly unlikely, but it's possible.

 

A couple things regarding price-

• I would recommend buying a plane at the higher end of the range for any given model.  Given your mission I wouldn't consider any plane without a WAAS GPS and a good autopilot.  My personal requirement was an autopilot that would fly a glide slope, but that's a personal choice for you.
• Don't wait for the perfect plane to show up because it's not going to happen.  Plan on doing some upgrades.  Before you do any upgrades, fly your plane for 60-90 days and get comfortable with it as-is.  I was going to put Aspen glass in the panel, but the King HSI is really capable.  I saved a little $ there.
• Your first year maintenance bill will be higher than normal.   It takes a while to get the kinks worked out of new airplanes and it costs money.
• If possible, spend the extra $5-10K to get the plane you want now instead of doing upgrades later.  You don't recover the cost of the upgrade when you sell the airplane so you may as well buy the plane with the upgrades.

 

If you want to go fly a J model in Dallas let me know!  I'm at Addison.

[Bravoman]

Re flap speed: funny you said that. The running joke with my instructor was the plane would have to be in a dive for me to get in trouble with flaps 

 

Not bashing the Cherokee though. It is a great plane and I'd keep it if it had a bit more speed and better useful load. In order for me to carry 4 standard people in my Cherokee... I'd have to figure out how to fly without fuel

I have said a few times on this board that although I love my Mooney, I also love my fixed gear Saratoga. Full fuel, which is 102 useful, and I still have over 800lbs payload. I flight plan 140-145 and the time differential between the Bravo, which is a rocket ship, and the toga on our typical trip between Atlanta and Florida is surprisingly small. We use the Toga any time it is more than my wife and I, which is frequently. The mooney in my book is a two person and bags plane. If your mission involves flying consistently with more than 1 passenger, that should be factored in, and perhaps a larger Cherokee, Bonanza, etc should be considered.

Best of luck and welcome to the community!

Regards, Frank

[rbridges]

I have said a few times on this board that although I love my Mooney, I also love my fixed gear Saratoga. Full fuel, which is 102 useful, and I still have over 800lbs payload. I flight plan 140-145 and the time differential between the Bravo, which is a rocket ship, and the toga on our typical trip between Atlanta and Florida is surprisingly small. We use the Toga any time it is more than my wife and I, which is frequently. The mooney in my book is a two person and bags plane. If your mission involves flying consistently with more than 1 passenger, that should be factored in, and perhaps a larger Cherokee, Bonanza, etc should be considered.

Best of luck and welcome to the community!

Regards, Frank

 

Hey Frank, did you get any deer this year?  My son got his first buck in November.

[Bravoman]

Hey Frank, did you get any deer this year?  My son got his first buck in November.

Hi Robb-

No, first year in many I didn't hunt. Had too much going on with work, getting married in October, place in fla, etc. Congrats to your son--that is like the first solo, something you never forget. I'll definitely get back to it next season, love it down there in Macon county. Maybe we can all get together and do some hunting. My place is about 40 minutes from you.

Regards, Frank

[BobAustin]

Years ago I transitioned from an Archer to the Mooney M20J.  The urge to get speed was the result of a trip from Dallas to Northern California in my Archer.

 

 The Archers are all slower than book which requires even more decents to land for fuel, top off, climb back to cruise...The Archer needed much longer as the Mooney 201 would make the trip with ONE stop vs three.   Almost 1/2 the time of the Archer.  Headwinds make the problem even worse.

 

You will take longer trips than you think once you have a Mooney.

[RobertGary1]

I've had my F for 15 years. Useful load is 1000 lbs annuals (owner done) range between $400-$12,000. I've had 3 $10K plus annuals. I did have a $40K engine problem at mid time. Remember that the price to purchase the plane is far from the last check you'll write. Don't make the mistake of stretching yourself and then having a $10K repair ground you. It's a scenario I see over and over.

[Marauder]

I've had my F for 15 years. Useful load is 1000 lbs annuals (owner done) range between $400-$12,000. I've had 3 $10K plus annuals. I did have a $40K engine problem at mid time. Remember that the price to purchase the plane is far from the last check you'll write. Don't make the mistake of stretching yourself and then having a $10K repair ground you. It's a scenario I see over and over.

So true, if I look back how much I spent on the plane over the years, I could have bought a brand new plane -- of course, i wouldn't have any money to put fuel in it.

[ryoder]

I like owning a Mooney but think I might not do it forever. I like flying with friends and in different airplanes. I don't need an airplane for travel just for training and fun flights. I'd be pretty upset if I had to spend 40k on an engine. Upset enough to decide to quit being an owner. I might just decide to get a new convertible Z06 instead and save a ton of money renting.

[BigTex]

I like owning a Mooney but think I might not do it forever. I like flying with friends and in different airplanes. I don't need an airplane for travel just for training and fun flights. I'd be pretty upset if I had to spend 40k on an engine. Upset enough to decide to quit being an owner. I might just decide to get a new convertible Z06 instead and save a ton of money renting.

Out of curiosity, did your mission change or just didn't think through the purchase?

[ryoder]

Not really sure. I like lots of different things and don't mind owning a Mooney for a specific period of time and then allowing someone else to enjoy it. Watching two people die last week didn't help either.

[carusoam]

Wait til you try to keep the Z06 and an airplane...

And the wife and the family...

And then need an OH...

It may take some inner strength, but I'm sure it can be done....?

-a-