My new Bravo

[Jimmyred]

This is the site I am using to document my transition to the Mooney Bravo. I look forward to any comment to help me withe the transition and hopefully it can be used by other new owners.

[Skywarrior]

Don't feel embarrassed to use two hands on landing flare.

 

Don't try touch-and-goes - only full-stops.

 

On go-around when (not if;  heh-heh) you porpoise during a, ahem, fouled-up landing attempt, don't apply full power, if you can help it. Use about 2/3 of the throttle travel - then milk the flaps up some, let the bird accelerate some, then work the flaps up the rest of the way and apply the rest of the power. Then you can think about pulling the gear up. If you instead apply full power, you're going to be a-holes & elbows trying to keep the nose down and keeping the plane pointed forward.

[FlyDave]

Jimmy,

 

Congratulations on moving into a Bravo. I traded my J for a Bravo last December and have enjoyed every minute of flying it - except at the ga$ pump :<(. It's got lots of power and the long body adds new dimensions to owning a Mooney (literally). I see you live in Oregon and it looks like your bird has TKS - good choice for that area!

Tell us more about yourself. What your flying background is, why you chose a Bravo, your typical mission, what you're transitioning from, who you're doing your transition training with, etc.

 

Again, Congratulations!

 

Dave

[Jimmyred]

Hello everyone,

I guess I should start out with my history in aviation. I started flying when I was 14 after going to the Chino airshow. I took a lesson a week at Fullerton airport. When I turned 16 I soloed and started working at the airport as a fueler for a company named Sac Aero, it is out of business now.

At 17 I received my pilots license and quit flying while persuing a career as a firefighter. After becoming a firefighter I started flying again and bought my first plane, a 1965 Mooney E model.

I had that plane for 9 years and averaged 200 hours a year ie. I used it a lot! I received my commercial instrument and traveled all around the country to places like Wilksboro, NC; Memphis; all over Colorado; SFO; Portland; Seattle; Etc.

It only had steam guages, no auto pilot, dual 155s, yoke mounted gps and yet I loved hard IFR! The most high tech thing I had was a DVOR and a Garmin 327 transponder.

Unfortunately, After 9 years I was working a lot of overtime to buy properties and the lack of challenge, I needed tks to take my flying to the next level since Richard Collins is my idol, I decided to sell my plane. But I knew that I would buy another one when the time was right.

And that brings me to today. When N1090L went on the market I knew it was the plane for me and bought it at asking price. Now it sits at Redmond airport waiting for Don Kaye to get here from San Jose to start my instruction. While waiting I am going over the manual and flight review material since I don't want to waste a minute of my instruction.

The plane has: Garmin G600, dual 430s, FIKI TKS, long range tanks, tanis heater, JPI 700 and the standard Bravo equipment.

Through the buying process I started getting instruction in 152s and 172s so I will have a grand total of 4 hours, in four years, before getting into 90L.

My goal is to get my Flight review and VFR checkout then my IPC in a simulator, then do intensive IFR training with a CFII with all the weather Oregon and Washington has to offer!

Along the way I hope to get suggestion from the Bravo group to help me along!

I hope tp hear from you all,

Jim

[Jimmyred]

My new bird.

[Jimmyred]

The panel much different from my last plane.

[carusoam]

Way to get restarted Jimmy!

Have you seen Don Kaye's video?

Welcome aboard,

-a-

[Jimmyred]

Not yet.

[fantom]

Don't tell Don Kaye, but I prefer your panel to his, Jim. Best of luck with the training, and be sure to have some fun at the same time!

[carqwik]

Congrats...just wait 'til you see how much gas you burn to go fast!  Just kidding...(not)!  Actually, it will be great to read about your experiences during the transition, training, and comparisons with your previous bird.  I am sure everyone is looking forward to future installments...

[Danb]

Good luck Jimmy welcome to the Bravo community, good luck with the talk panel which looks awesome, with your prior Hans only a IFR flying and vast experience in the short body you'll have no problem transitioning yo the long body. You may be the one offering the suggestions. I agree with Chuck re no touch and goes...have fun flying fast and using fuel hopefully you have long range tanks extremely helpful on long range xcrosscountries ....it's my understanding you choose a great instructor ....

[JohnB]

Welcome Jimmy! Great purchase.. one of my personal best ever getting mine. Getting up above 14k and having that sky pretty much to yourself while controllers think you are a King Air or something because you're going so fast is one of my favorite parts of owning a Bravo.

 

Would definitely recommend getting a good Mooney specific transition instructor, it will make all of the difference and it's worth traveling outside of your area to get one.  I don't know of any in your area, but. I'm sure folks on the board here can give you some recommendations if you need one.

[Bravoman]

Jimmy--welcome to the board. You made a great choice in planes. Have had mine since late last year and found transition from Saratoga to be pretty easy. My seller, who holds a cfii was very kind to spend a couple days with me to get acquainted with the bird before I took her home. I had never previously owned or flew a Mooney, but since you have I'm sure that will make your transition to the m20m all the more easy. I find the plane to be very stable and predictable, and I actually think it is easier to grease landings consistently as compared to the Toga. For me crosswind landings are consistently better as well. If you stay on your numbers the Bravo feels like its on rails during the approach and while flariing and touching down. If you're too fast, even by a little, she won't want to settle down. Also I have found that flap retraction as soon as practicable after touchdown is real important to a stable rollout. Fuel consumption is really not crazy in my opinion because in cruise you can comfortably lean back to about 16gph at settings such as 30/24(I sometimes pull back prop to 22, which is the lowest allowable rpm setting). When you factor in speed as compared to other planes with big bore lycs and continentals, i really think the Bravo is pretty efficient. Just be mindful of your chts and try to keep em below 400 at all times. In this regard, I find that when ambient temps are up there cracking the cowl flaps a half notch helps keep the chts in the comfortable range while in cruise, with no perceptabe loss of speed.

For the past couple weeks my baby has been down at Sarasota avionics getting a panel upgrade and I sure can't wait to get her back! Good luck and enjoy!

Regards, Frank

[FlyDave]

Jimmy--welcome to the board. You made a great choice in planes. Have had mine since late last year and found transition from Saratoga to be pretty easy. My seller, who holds a cfii was very kind to spend a couple days with me to get acquainted with the bird before I took her home. I had never previously owned or flew a Mooney, but since you have I'm sure that will make your transition to the m20m all the more easy. I find the plane to be very stable and predictable, and I actually think it is easier to grease landings consistently as compared to the Toga. For me crosswind landings are consistently better as well. If you stay on your numbers the Bravo feels like its on rails during the approach and while flariing and touching down. If you're too fast, even by a little, she won't want to settle down. Also I have found that flap retraction as soon as practicable after touchdown is real important to a stable rollout. Fuel consumption is really not crazy in my opinion because in cruise you can comfortably lean back to about 16gph at settings such as 30/24(I sometimes pull back prop to 22, which is the lowest allowable rpm setting). When you factor in speed as compared to other planes with big bore lycs and continentals, i really think the Bravo is pretty efficient. Just be mindful of your chts and try to keep em below 400 at all times. In this regard, I find that when ambient temps are up there cracking the cowl flaps a half notch helps keep the chts in the comfortable range while in cruise, with no perceptabe loss of speed.

For the past couple weeks my baby has been down at Sarasota avionics getting a panel upgrade and I sure can't wait to get her back! Good luck and enjoy!

Regards, Frank

 

Bravoman,

 

What is your TIT at 30/24 and 16 gph? Unless you're the 2nd Bravo driver I've heard about that can run LOP (let's not start that conversation) your TIT has to be +1750 at that power setting/FF.

I usually cruise at 26/24 and 16.5 gph with TIT under 1,600 dF yielding 190 KTAS @17,500'. If I go 29/24 it goes to 18.5 gph and 200 KTAS at 17,500' again with TIT under 1600 dF.

From what I've heard, if you run TIT much above 1,600 dF for extended periods you will probably burn up your exhaust system and be replacing turbochargers much more frequently.

 

Dave

[Bravoman]

Dave, I dont run lean of peak and I cannot remember ever getting to 1700 on the TIT. It typically peaks out at around 1580 to 1600 at that setting(30/24). However I typically don't have an opportunity to get up to 17 or 18k because most of my flights are between Atlanta and st Augustine so the distance doesn't warrant it. Most of my flying is between 8 and 13k, but I am looking forward to some upcoming planned trips to experience the higher altitudes and the performance and operating numbers where I know the Bravo is most efficient. Perhaps the delta as to what we have observed is due to the thinner air at the altitudes you speak of(?).

Just out of curiosity what is the %power at your settings. It is my understanding that 30/24 is around 65-70%. I will try your settings when I get my plane back from the avionics shop to see what happens.

Frank

[Brock]

Hey Jimmy, Welcome and good choice of dream machines. I had a "C" model for 5 years, and it took me a few days to get used to the Bravo. It is a longer, heavier, and much more powerful unit. Now that I am used to it, I find the landing a lot easier than the lighter 4 cylinder models. The heavier plane seems to settle out better, and I can grease this one in at a high percentage (C model maybe 50%). I land trimmed way way back, with full flaps and speed brakes (if X-wind, then 10 deg flaps). Good call above talking about power setting for a go-around. The way I have the unit trimmed back for landing, it would be a handfull on a full throttle go-around. I also get rid of the flaps early in the landing roll as it helps keep the plane on the ground (I have been advised to leave them full a little longer for drag during decelleration). For power settings I run similar to Bravoman 30/22.5 then lean back to 1650 TIT and end up with the same feul burn of 16 gph. Just completed a 30hr cross country west coast to east coast and back in the last 2 weeks. The airplane ran like a dream. The feul milage (not to be confused with hourly burn rate) is very close to what the C model got, we just get there in about 2/3 of the time. Fastest ground speed we saw on the GPS was 231kts at 15,500 with an upper tail wind, on the way back it was lower altitude and averaged 180 kts (headwinds). Enjoy your machine, I feel like I own a jet,

Brock

[carqwik]

FlyDave is right...at 30/2400 there is no way to run at 16 gph unless your running leaned to peak or LOP.  Typically at 30/2400 regardless of altitude I'm seeing fuel flow around 18.5 to 19+ gph for the first hour at cruise at 100 ROP with the TIT at 1600 or so.  I get to 16.5 gph running at 27/2400 in cruise.

 

One thing to note is that the TIT probe starts to fail in a way that shows lower top temps (at least mine did twice)....until it eventually fails completely.  The TIT probes only last 400 hours or so MTBF.

[Brock]

FlyDave is right...at 30/2400 there is no way to run at 16 gph unless your running leaned to peak or LOP.  Typically at 30/2400 regardless of altitude I'm seeing fuel flow around 18.5 to 19+ gph for the first hour at cruise at 100 ROP with the TIT at 1600 or so.  I get to 16.5 gph running at 27/2400 in cruise.

 

One thing to note is that the TIT probe starts to fail in a way that shows lower top temps (at least mine did twice)....until it eventually fails completely.  The TIT probes only last 400 hours or so MTBF.

Hmmm, wonder if my TIT probe is showing lower temps? I just put about 4200nm running TIT at 1650 and CHT 370. I better run it a little richer until I can get that checked out, perhaps using the feul flow at 18gph? I will play with it a little and get back to you... thanks for the input

[FlyDave]

Dave, I dont run lean of peak and I cannot remember ever getting to 1700 on the TIT. It typically peaks out at around 1580 to 1600 at that setting(30/24). However I typically don't have an opportunity to get up to 17 or 18k because most of my flights are between Atlanta and st Augustine so the distance doesn't warrant it. Most of my flying is between 8 and 13k, but I am looking forward to some upcoming planned trips to experience the higher altitudes and the performance and operating numbers where I know the Bravo is most efficient. Perhaps the delta as to what we have observed is due to the thinner air at the altitudes you speak of(?).

Just out of curiosity what is the %power at your settings. It is my understanding that 30/24 is around 65-70%. I will try your settings when I get my plane back from the avionics shop to see what happens.

Frank

 

Don  Kaye's "Key Number's" (RPM/100 + MP) are as follows:

Key number of 53 = 75% HP, 2400/29" or 2200/31"

Key number of 50 = 65% HP, 2400/26" or 2200/28"

 

Don runs his Bravo at 2400/29" burning 18.5 gph to keep TIT under 1600 dF. I find in the summer, running that hard runs the CHT's above 400 dF unless you run around 19.5 GPH or trail the cowl flaps (4 second cowl flap deployment). I don't see any degradation in speed with the cowl flaps open that much. In winter I don't have any problem keeping the CHT's down. The numbers you guys are posting for FF are way, way low from what I run.

I agree with carqwik on your TIT probe. If you don't see TIT above 1700 with those power settings and FF I'd check to see when it was replaced and verify it's registering the correct temps. If you're going to fly the plane before you get that done, I'd fly much richer than you have been until you get the TIT probe checked. One TIT probe is a lot cheaper than an exhaust system and/or a turbocharger.

[Bravoman]

Don  Kaye's "Key Number's" (RPM/100 + MP) are as follows:

Key number of 53 = 75% HP, 2400/29" or 2200/31"

Key number of 50 = 65% HP, 2400/26" or 2200/28"

 

Don runs his Bravo at 2400/29" burning 18.5 gph to keep TIT under 1600 dF. I find in the summer, running that hard runs the CHT's above 400 dF unless you run around 19.5 GPH or trail the cowl flaps (4 second cowl flap deployment). I don't see any degradation in speed with the cowl flaps open that much. In winter I don't have any problem keeping the CHT's down. The numbers you guys are posting for FF are way, way low from what I run.

I agree with carqwik on your TIT probe. If you don't see TIT above 1700 with those power settings and FF I'd check to see when it was replaced and verify it's registering the correct temps. If you're going to fly the plane before you get that done, I'd fly much richer than you have been until you get the TIT probe checked. One TIT probe is a lot cheaper than an exhaust system and/or a turbocharger.

Thanks for the advice. My plane is still in avionics shop and one of the things I'm doing is upgrading the original JPI 700 to 730. I'll make sure that probe gets swapped out.In fact, ill make sure they are all replaced. I agree, it's cheap insurance. I Have never been one to risk decreased engine life to save gas. One question: if I was inadvertently running too lean wouldn't I be seeing high chts?

Thanks again, Frank

Frank

[FlyDave]

Thanks for the advice. My plane is still in avionics shop and one of the things I'm doing is upgrading the original JPI 700 to 730. I'll make sure that probe gets swapped out.In fact, ill make sure they are all replaced. I agree, it's cheap insurance. I Have never been one to risk decreased engine life to save gas. One question: if I was inadvertently running too lean wouldn't I be seeing high chts?

Thanks again, Frank

Frank

Frank,

 

Yes, I would think the CHT's would be higher as well. So I wonder if you're actually running LOP. The only other person on this board that can run LOP is Awful_Charlie. So it's not out of the question.

Charlie - can you chime in with your power setting, FF and temps?

 

Dave

[Awful_Charlie]

You called

 

I do LOP, as gas is expensive here. Typically I run 30"/2200 which is around the 65% figure according to the Lycoming POH. With that I'll do in the high 12's to high 13's GPH, and get 170-180KTAS in the FL180 sort of area, with CHTs in the 300-350 band with the cowl flaps closed.
With a headwind, I will go up to 32/2400, and if it's a stinker then even consider 34/2400 - however at those settings I can get to the TIT limit, so it's ROP and the FF gets to wallet hurting levels. At the other end of the scale, I was bimbling back a weekend or three ago, and and went to play a bit with higher efficiency, so dropped back to 10.5GPH for 160KTAS - I'm sure some of the short bodies will sniff at that, but then they are unlikely to be carrying FIKI and dual alternators etc

 

If you go too lean, the efficiency of the engine drops off, as well as the power going down dramatically. At peak EGT/TIT, the CHTs should already be cooler than they were when a bit ROP, so the sweet spot is between peak and 25LOP. Of course, you need some balance in the cylinders to do this, and I have GAMIs, but still working with JP to minimise the spread.

 

For the climb I use 34/2400, 120 KIAS, cowl flaps open, and about 22GPH, and then no CHT problems. Not so long ago I did have a stiff altitude restriction to make, so was down to between Vx and Vy, and got my hottest cylinder to about 410, which was as far as I wanted it to go, and that was after bumping up the FF to about 25 IIRC.

 

Agree with needing both hands for the flare, but personally am against retracting the flaps on landing - you can find other reports on here about despite the difference in the flap and gear levers how a brain fart can leave you with an expensive repair. With normal loads, I would suggest that getting out is going to be more runway limiting that getting in. I also disagree with T&Gs - you can do them by all means, they are not that unusual, but I would suggest you get to grips with them after getting the landings sorted, and only then initially from long (>2000 yards) of tarmac. At the end of the day, a T&G is just a go-around after the wheels have touched, and you might want to do that if some clot pull out on the runway you have just landed on! After having the Bravo a few years now, I'd have no hesitation in doing a normal T&G at my home base (1000yards), and at my last BFR the instructor had me doing flapless T&Gs on 1300 yards - there was a bit of clenching going on there!

 

Enjoy your new bird - they are tremendously capable, but then I am somewhat biased!

[donkaye]

Don't tell Don Kaye, but I prefer your panel to his, Jim. Best of luck with the training, and be sure to have some fun at the same time!

 

Too late...

[donkaye]

Not yet.

 

 

He has now.

[donkaye]

Welcome Jimmy! Great purchase.. one of my personal best ever getting mine. Getting up above 14k and having that sky pretty much to yourself while controllers think you are a King Air or something because you're going so fast is one of my favorite parts of owning a Bravo.

 

Would definitely recommend getting a good Mooney specific transition instructor, it will make all of the difference and it's worth traveling outside of your area to get one.  I don't know of any in your area, but. I'm sure folks on the board here can give you some recommendations if you need one.

 

He got the same one you had, John. ;-)  This is the third owner of this airplane that I have transitioned.