ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Hey guys I am almost a new Mooney owner. I just put a deposit on a 1965 M20C with 2500 AFTT and 2500 SNEW 1000SPOH. I am a 75 hour Cessna 172 new pilot with zero complex training. I am in contact with a Mooney expert you guys probably know about who lives in Palm Harbor. He is going to show me the ropes of piloting and ownership. About the airplane: Here it is: http://www.allaviations.com/N79396.html The engine is high time and over TBO but has good compressions. I spoke with the owner of the shop at KCLW in Clearwater, FL who did the annual on it and he is satisfied with the motor. He had his ferry guy ferry it over from KPIE after installing new hoses on the motor. The interior is dated and original. The plastic pilot's side panel is loose and faded yellow. Engine runs up good but had some fouling that the mechanic is going to take care of. No metal in the screen. Avionics work well and it has an Apollo SL30 nav/com that I find very sexy. Its IFR certified and has a nice new looking VOR with glideslope that worked well when I tuned in KPIE VOR. The other VOR only indicator was slow responding and didn't want to show the to/from indicator with confidence. That was strange to me. The paint is good but the fuselage paint looks nicer where there was a large cover compared to the empennage. I hope the differences can be smoothed out with a buff job. I don't know how to detail an airplane so I'll probably just pay for it. I do have a Porter Cable for my Corvette but I don't know if I want to get into that on an airplane just starting out. Stuff I don't like: 1. ratty looking carpet 2. plastic interior panels are faded and the left panel isn't stationary, mechanic said maybe an oversize screw but I haven't spent much time looking at it yet 3. high time motor 4. old looking and pitted/crazed two piece windshield doesn't have as much visibility as I am used to 5. I don't know how to fly it! I have a lot of free time on the weekends and want to start working on the airplane myself to make it more pleasant. I have done carpet, painted plastic panels, installed leather seat covers, done brake jobs, installed headers, and many other mods on cars over the years. What can I do on this airplane and what should I do? I bought it at a low price and don't mind investing some money into it over the next year to make it a nice airplane. The seller is a broker and he said I can get the engine rebuilt for as low as 14k for a budget major overhaul. I plan to get my complex endorsement in it and get to know the airplane with the CFI before I decide what to do with the engine. I'd like to start on inexpensive owner mods asap. Like the pito tube has some rust on it. So I'd like to sand and repaint that. Quote
Hank Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Welcome! You chose a good model. The FARs provide an exact list of the 43 items you can do to your plane (some of which don't apply) on your own. Other things can be done under supervision of A&P/IAs; find one, work with him and develop a relationship, the more you do well, the more he will feel good letting you do. I bought mine with 62 hours, so it's very doable. Pay attention, fly precisely, join MAPA and go to a Pilot Proficiency Program soon. 3 Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 Thanks guys! I never thought I'd get a retractable this soon but I have a master CFI and Mooney expert on payroll soon so I will be in good hands. Glad to hear another low time pilot tamed the beast. I had a long conversation with the owner of the shop and he explained that I could even replace windows by myself which is cool. I'd like to get a new one piece thicker windshield at some point. Quote
MB65E Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Good luck with everything. My E is only 55 n numbers lower... I saw 793.. And got excited. Looks like a little time capsule! It would be hard to get a quote for under 15 for a major OH. I did everything I could on ours to save last year and it came in around 12k. I did all the assembly, disassembly, cleaning, install etc... Well... You have different cylinders so that might be better. Good luck with everything, like the attitude! -Matt Quote
DaV8or Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Welcome to Mooneyspace and to the world of Mooneys! Congratulations on picking the most popular Mooney of all! You said you put a deposit down, so I'm assuming this is not a done deal yet? I hope you are getting a pre buy inspection by a Mooney expert. There are a lot of areas where there can be some very expensive repairs required to maintain airworthiness. The average Cessna/Piper mechanic has no idea what to look for, or where. Do not trust that just because it has a fresh annual or something like that, that you're good to go. There are a lot of terrible annuals done all the time. I'm not trying to scare you, or be a downer. I just really would like to see more prospective Mooney owners not get hosed and recently we have two members here on the forums discover after purchase that the pre buy inspections and annuals that were done by non Mooney experts have cost them their planes basically. It's really heartbreaking to this watch happen to others. I can't imagine how bad it must be for the people living it. Here are two threads to check out on this- http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11665-heres-to-the-mother-ing-faa/?hl=mother http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/?hl=junk Best of luck with the Mooney! Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I dont think the windshield qualifies as an owner-maintenance item, but the side windows certainly do. I hope the engine has been overhauled since 1965. Thats 49 years ago. you can overhaul it for around 15K if you do all the work and assembly, but that runs up the labor quite a bit unless you have someone to mentor you for free. If you replace the accessories (2K) , the hoses (800$) , oil cooler flush (200$) , engine mount recert (1K), engine mounts (700$) and a week's labor it gets frighteningly high, like way over 20 grand. Cut corners and you have an engine that wont run 2000 hours. A friend of mine bought a nice, and I mean nice, 76 M20F. the first annual they crawled under it and found a 2" spot of corrosion on the left wing upper spar cap, in the wheel well. The wing has to come off, its at Dugosh now, and its going to be 25 grand. He's not happy. Just be careful. Quote
rbridges Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 being maintained by Wilmar is a good thing, but how recent was that? Dave hit the nail on the head; have a good mooney inspection. I got burned with leaky tanks shortly after I bought mine. I knew to look for it, but the patch job held up until I bought the plane. Some of the props have an annoying recurring AD. I would find out if yours is in that group. Not a deal breaker but would be good to know. anyway, welcome to mooneyspace. just an FYI, the '65 C models are the cool ones. Quote
carusoam Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 What year is the Vette? Nice C, by the way... Best regards, -a- Quote
Hector Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Congrats. I own a 67C just up the road from you in Jacksonville, FL. It was well maintained and it has been a great airplane for me. Once you get flying come up here and I'll try to speed up your learning curve with regards to maintenance and what to look for. I do 95% or more of the maintenance including the annual inspections with my local A&P signing off what I do. It's in my nature to learn everything I can about what I fly and how to maintain it. In the mean time, there is a lot of info here in Mooneyspace and folks that know a lot more about Mooney's than I. Start reading and learning. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 Congrats. I own a 67C just up the road from you in Jacksonville, FL. It was well maintained and it has been a great airplane for me. Once you get flying come up here and I'll try to speed up your learning curve with regards to maintenance and what to look for. I do 95% or more of the maintenance including the annual inspections with my local A&P signing off what I do. It's in my nature to learn everything I can about what I fly and how to maintain it. In the mean time, there is a lot of info here in Mooneyspace and folks that know a lot more about Mooney's than I. Start reading and learning. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Thanks man I'll do that! I've got access to Mike a local Mooney expert as well so with him, and you guys on the forum I should be good to go. I want to start out doing interior maintenance items. Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 I dont think the windshield qualifies as an owner-maintenance item, but the side windows certainly do. I hope the engine has been overhauled since 1965. Thats 49 years ago. you can overhaul it for around 15K if you do all the work and assembly, but that runs up the labor quite a bit unless you have someone to mentor you for free. If you replace the accessories (2K) , the hoses (800$) , oil cooler flush (200$) , engine mount recert (1K), engine mounts (700$) and a week's labor it gets frighteningly high, like way over 20 grand. Cut corners and you have an engine that wont run 2000 hours. A friend of mine bought a nice, and I mean nice, 76 M20F. the first annual they crawled under it and found a 2" spot of corrosion on the left wing upper spar cap, in the wheel well. The wing has to come off, its at Dugosh now, and its going to be 25 grand. He's not happy. Just be careful. The engine has all new hoses with this annual. I talked to Mike and he is calling Jeff who runs the shop and did the annual. He is going to direct Jeff to do some Mooney specific inspections. I am also considering having Jeff open it back up and apply Corrosion-X and do an extra special corrosion check on it. I'll call him today with a list of special emphasis items. I don't want to spend 25k on a 20k airplane Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 What year is the Vette? Nice C, by the way... Best regards, -a- Its a 2013. I have owned 4 Camaros and then briefly got into S10 and Silverado land before buying a used 2002, then a new 2008, and now a new 2013. They are inexpensive to buy and operate if you do it right. I got this 2013 for 39k brand new with my supplier discount, gmcard money, loyalty rebate, and customer cash. Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 Welcome to Mooneyspace and to the world of Mooneys! Congratulations on picking the most popular Mooney of all! You said you put a deposit down, so I'm assuming this is not a done deal yet? I hope you are getting a pre buy inspection by a Mooney expert. There are a lot of areas where there can be some very expensive repairs required to maintain airworthiness. The average Cessna/Piper mechanic has no idea what to look for, or where. Do not trust that just because it has a fresh annual or something like that, that you're good to go. There are a lot of terrible annuals done all the time. I'm not trying to scare you, or be a downer. I just really would like to see more prospective Mooney owners not get hosed and recently we have two members here on the forums discover after purchase that the pre buy inspections and annuals that were done by non Mooney experts have cost them their planes basically. It's really heartbreaking to this watch happen to others. I can't imagine how bad it must be for the people living it. Here are two threads to check out on this- http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11665-heres-to-the-mother-ing-faa/?hl=mother http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/?hl=junk Best of luck with the Mooney! I was planning on just using the fresh annual because I was at the shop talking to the guy who did it yesterday. The airplane is not even 100% done with the annual yet but inspection plates are all back on. My Mooney expert is not in town till next weekend but I am going to have the guy doing the annual do another round of inspections for my satisfaction concentrating on Mooney specific problem areas. I'll probably have him apply Corrosion X. He said its 250 during annual and 350 any time. I'll ask if he can do it for $300 and promise him some future work as this bird could use a bit more tlc. Quote
PTK Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Who is paying for the annual? You or the seller? You need to insist on a Mooney Service Center of your choice do it on your behalf. Listen to them and follow their advice. The pitfalls are real and potentially very expensive. VERY expensive. You pay for the annual inspection and seller pays for airworthiness items. It's money well spent. 3 Quote
BigTex Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 The engine has all new hoses with this annual. I talked to Mike and he is calling Jeff who runs the shop and did the annual. He is going to direct Jeff to do some Mooney specific inspections. I am also considering having Jeff open it back up and apply Corrosion-X and do an extra special corrosion check on it. I'll call him today with a list of special emphasis items. I don't want to spend 25k on a 20k airplane Keep in mind that most well maintained '65 M20C with decent avionics and a well running engine doesn't go for $20k. It's typically closer to the $45K you don't want to spend. As others are saying please get a pre-buy so you know what you're getting into before you push the stack of cash across the table. Maybe you will get lucky and it's just older avionics and a high time engine but again maybe not. 1 Quote
rob Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 If you think you can save some money by picking up a tired bird and working on it yourself, please be warned that you are taking a huge risk and may lose your shirt. I just sold my 65C which was VERY clean and had more in the radios than you can imagine for a song. It had a strong running mid time engine and nice paint and Interior. There are great deals out there on great airplanes. My advice would be to buy one as close to how you'd like it as opposed to a project. You'll save money and heartache in the long run. 3 Quote
fantom Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 You'll save money and heartache in the long run. .....and flying time! Is your driving desire to be an active pilot or a mechanic? 2 Quote
Cruiser Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 did you look at this one? http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12482-65-e-for-sale-34000/ you should give Alan a call. 1 Quote
DaV8or Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I was planning on just using the fresh annual because I was at the shop talking to the guy who did it yesterday. The airplane is not even 100% done with the annual yet but inspection plates are all back on. My Mooney expert is not in town till next weekend but I am going to have the guy doing the annual do another round of inspections for my satisfaction concentrating on Mooney specific problem areas. I'll probably have him apply Corrosion X. He said its 250 during annual and 350 any time. I'll ask if he can do it for $300 and promise him some future work as this bird could use a bit more tlc. Here is a great pre buy check list made by LASAR, one the country's foremost Mooney shops. 65 years of experience! All they do is Mooneys. Have a look at this list and have your Mooney guy go down it. He probably already knows most of this stuff, but it never hurts to have check list. Good luck and don't worry about walking away if there ends up being a lot of question marks. Do not get emotionally attached to this plane until after the purchase. For now, pretend you are evaluating the purchase of a very expensive clothes dryer, or something. There are loads of Mooneys available with more popping up all the time. LASAR Pre Buy Checklist.pdf 1 Quote
mike_elliott Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Ryan has asked me to do his transition training and asked me to help him in the purchase process yesterday. While I am away with a Bravo owner in Indy and will be in Longview for a bit, the plane is going thru a prebuy from a very good IA I know of and I have asked a very good friend of mine who had been maintaining this plane in Minnesota for the "low down" on it. Those of you that know me know I would rather have Don Maxwell do the prebuy on any Mooney over anybody, but gent that is doing it, while not a MSC is Mooney savvy. I have suggested to Ryan to get over to KCLW while the plane is on jacks and learn to swing the gear, and Ill speak with the IA soon as to a number of areas to make sure are addressed. Ryan, there are a number of very excellent suggestions in this thread for you to consider, feel free to call me to discuss any of them. 1 Quote
larryb Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Ryan: What are your goals for this plane? VFR trainer, local flying, building hours? Or are you looking for a long distance traveling IFR machine? I think your candidate plane may be fine as a VFR trainer but the upgrade costs will be high if you want an IFR traveling machine. The real cost of ownership is NOT in the purchase. It's in the ownership. I spend more in one year owning my 201 than you are planning to purchase this plane for. And that's without any major upgrades or maintenance problems. Larry 1 Quote
ryoder Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 True, ownership will cost. I am planning on having some fun VFR trips and working on my instrument ticket in the airplane. If I don't like it and it doesn't work for me I can always sell it. As long as I make that decision before making more large dollar investments I should be ok. Once I get the plane situated I may bring on a partner to defray some of the costs of ownership. If I still can't justify the thing then I might just go light sport and burn 93 octane pump gas at 5gph. I also have a coworker with a nice 182 that he just mentioned I could purchase a half share. I have options. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 buy one as close to how you'd like it as opposed to a project. You'll save money and heartache in the long run. I've got a 64 M20C sn:2805. A year older than yours. After doing all the research I could about airplane ownership and the market I bought the best equipped C I could find. I spent $48K but got an almost perfectly equipped C. 825 hours on Factory Remanufactured engine, new paint, new interior, 530WAAS, HSI, STec30, and every speed mod ever developed for the C from the cowl and glass to the wing tiedown points. Get what you want, the way you want it and then just go fly. I'm sure that for every dollar you spend up front, you will save $4 in upgrades. Just my $0.02 Pictures are in the gallery. 2 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.