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TBM 900

Seth

By Seth
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Seth Grand Master

Seth

Posted
Posted

First two TBM 900's delivered. 

 

I don't know where I was hiding the past few months until I read about the TBM 900 a few days ago.  330 knots.

 

Amazing.  Wish in all the news they mentioned as they have in the past, that the "M" stands for Mooney.

 

All for a cool. $3.711 million. 

 

 

Looking on controller.com, I noted quite a few twin turboprops and small to medium jets for sale for less than that.  Yes, you lose out on the dollar per hour rate, but man, to get into a cabin class for less than $1 Million, or even under $500,000 is amazing.

 

I don't have the money for it, but window shopping can be nice.

 

Even a TBM 700 can be had for around $1 MM

 

-Seth

Marauder Grand Master

Marauder

Posted
Posted

First two TBM 900's delivered. 

 

I don't know where I was hiding the past few months until I read about the TBM 900 a few days ago.  330 knots.

 

Amazing.  Wish in all the news they mentioned as they have in the past, that the "M" stands for Mooney.

 

All for a cool. $3.711 million. 

 

 

Looking on controller.com, I noted quite a few twin turboprops and small to medium jets for sale for less than that.  Yes, you lose out on the dollar per hour rate, but man, to get into a cabin class for less than $1 Million, or even under $500,000 is amazing.

 

I don't have the money for it, but window shopping can be nice.

 

Even a TBM 700 can be had for around $1 MM

 

-Seth

 

 

It's not the acquistion price that will get you; it's the fuel and that hot section work that will get you! :) Still planning a start-up commuting business?

AndyFromCB Veteran

AndyFromCB

Posted
Posted

It's not the acquistion price that will get you; it's the fuel and that hot section work that will get you! :) Still planning a start-up commuting business?

 

Wrong and wrong ;-) The fuel per mile is about the same as Bravo if you take the 20% jet A discount into account. And hot section on that engine won't run anymore than 20 to 30K if you don't exceed parameters most of the time. The overhaul, though, will be close to $300K. P&W ESP Lite runs about 100 an hour and covers almost everything but FOD. Insurance covers that.

 

Bravo:

 

210 at about 22gph = 9.54 nmpg

 

320 at about 48gph (60gph * .8) = 6.66 nmpg

 

Or 240 at 32gph (40gph * .8) = 7.5 nmpg

 

I'm shopping for a C2 model currently. Insurance was actually quoted a bit less than Bravo percentage wise (about 1.2% vs 1.4%) with no prior turbine and 500TT. 30 hours of mentor time required. All and all, $200 per flight hour is a good estimate for engine, parts and maintenance so about twice what I believe Bravo eats and I have the spreadsheets to prove it.

 

There will be a really well maintained Bravo for sale soon...

  • Like 1
KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

Good luck with the hunt and transition!  

 

A family friend in TX moved up to a 700 years ago after he sold his business and retired.  I know he sure loves it.  They are phenomenal planes, and a logical step up for a Mooney pilot.  I sure wish Mooney could have been the one to bring it to market in the 80s...

AndyFromCB Veteran

AndyFromCB

Posted
Posted

To spend $3.7 on an aircraft like that one has to have a business need, healthy profits and rather write the check to Socata than the IRS. Then it makes sense. I wonder what kind of pressure that will put on TBM850 w and w/o the G1000. They still seem to be in the 1.7 to 2.5 million range depending on EFIS40 vs G1000 and pilot door vs none. The C2 seemed to have stabilized in the 1.4-1.5 range. And yes, you can buy a Mustang for that but a Mustang budget is closer to $250K a year vs $100K for a TBM for same miles flown. Also, heading west, mustang is a 700nm aircraft, TBM closer to 1100nm. Then there is an issue of high altitude/high temperature departure where Mustang is really weight limited. You have to leave 800lb of fuel on the ground leaving Denver in July. Non issue with a TBM. Granted, one engine out rate of climb beats TBMs ;-)  I'll still never fly at night or low IFR so I'm willing to make that trade off.

Marauder Grand Master

Marauder

Posted
Posted

Wrong and wrong ;-) The fuel per mile is about the same as Bravo if you take the 20% jet A discount into account. And hot section on that engine won't run anymore than 20 to 30K if you don't exceed parameters most of the time. The overhaul, though, will be close to $300K. P&W ESP Lite runs about 100 an hour and covers almost everything but FOD. Insurance covers that.

 

Bravo:

 

210 at about 22gph = 9.54 nmpg

 

320 at about 48gph (60gph * .8) = 6.66 nmpg

 

Or 240 at 32gph (40gph * .8) = 7.5 nmpg

 

I'm shopping for a C2 model currently. Insurance was actually quoted a bit less than Bravo percentage wise (about 1.2% vs 1.4%) with no prior turbine and 500TT. 30 hours of mentor time required. All and all, $200 per flight hour is a good estimate for engine, parts and maintenance so about twice what I believe Bravo eats and I have the spreadsheets to prove it.

 

There will be a really well maintained Bravo for sale soon...

 

http://www.newavex.com/costs.htm

 

I'd be curious if anyone has current experience with the cost of running a single engine turbine. Based on the matrix I provided, $356/hr just for fuel is too rich for me... I had a friend in the 80s who flew B200, but he also had a home in Aspen and another one in Miami and a small getaway in the Caymans...

AndyFromCB Veteran

AndyFromCB

Posted
Posted

http://www.newavex.com/costs.htm

 

I'd be curious if anyone has current experience with the cost of running a single engine turbine. Based on the matrix I provided, $356/hr just for fuel is too rich for me... I had a friend in the 80s who flew B200, but he also had a home in Aspen and another one in Miami and a small getaway in the Caymans...

 

The Avex matrix is pretty much dead on the money from my research and talking to my two PC-12 owning friends. $356 on fuel sounds like a lot until you take into account that to cover same distance at max speed my Bravo will eat about $240 worth 100LL. My all in engine reserve on the Bravo without any guarantee of making TBO is about $40 an hour. My Bravo's engine has been overhauled 3 (plus a half, if you count splitting the case once due to camshaft issue at 1100 hours) times in 3500 hours. Guaranteed (as in guaranteed by P&W on ESP program) engine reserve on PT6 on the TBM is $100 an hour. Other than the initial price of entry, running a SETP vs a high performance single is not exactly a wash but pretty damn close. The three big hits are hangar, insurance (due to much higher hull value) and recurrent training. That's $50K a year more my Bravo which is a lot money if you're not flying for business a lot. 

bnicolette Veteran

bnicolette

Posted
Posted

First two TBM 900's delivered. 

 

I don't know where I was hiding the past few months until I read about the TBM 900 a few days ago.  330 knots.

 

Amazing.  Wish in all the news they mentioned as they have in the past, that the "M" stands for Mooney.

 

All for a cool. $3.711 million. 

 

 

Looking on controller.com, I noted quite a few twin turboprops and small to medium jets for sale for less than that.  Yes, you lose out on the dollar per hour rate, but man, to get into a cabin class for less than $1 Million, or even under $500,000 is amazing.

 

I don't have the money for it, but window shopping can be nice.

 

Even a TBM 700 can be had for around $1 MM

 

-Seth

 

You can buy a Beech Duke for under $100K.  Big pressurized cabin.  Ridiculous.   This one sold for under $80K with good times on the engines.  Yikes.

post-7889-0-24451400-1395867289_thumb.jp

AndyFromCB Veteran

AndyFromCB

Posted
Posted

You can buy a Beech Duke for under $100K.  Big pressurized cabin.  Ridiculous.   This one sold for under $80K with good times on the engines.  Yikes.

 

something to be said for walking up to an airplane between annuals and having everything work. There is a good reason why these things cost 80K. To keep that pig in the air and truly airworthy condition, you'll be spending another 80K every six months and still having no dispatch reliability what so ever.

 

There is no such thing as a duke "with good times on the engines". They are ticking time bombs and I'm willing to bet under most conditions, a TBM will have a better single engine out rate of "climb" than a tired, old duke. What's the terminal velocity of a duke in a Vmc rollover ;-)

 

As to cheap older jets, same story. 7 figure inspection invoices are not an exception but a rule. Out of all the old turboprops, only the MU2 can be efficiently maintained as far as I am concerned and offer reliability. Here is an inspection schedule for an older citation encore:

 

Cessna Citation 560

 

The big problem with the MU2 or a Duke for that matter is the simply fact that I am just not a that good of a stick to ever want to fly one. Too many damn switches/systems, too high of speeds, too much precision involved. Neither is a weekend warrior's airplane. A TBM is. You can not fly for two months like I do all the time, hop in a TBM and feel at home in minutes and then cross the country 5 times in a month and then put it away for another two months.

  • Like 1
WardHolbrook Experienced

WardHolbrook

Posted
Posted

http://www.newavex.com/costs.htm

 

I'd be curious if anyone has current experience with the cost of running a single engine turbine. Based on the matrix I provided, $356/hr just for fuel is too rich for me... I had a friend in the 80s who flew B200, but he also had a home in Aspen and another one in Miami and a small getaway in the Caymans...

 

You need to consider the costs on a per mile basis as well. It won't really help much, but it will make things a bit easier to swallow.

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

Might be debatable...the buy-in for the RT Duke is a lot lower than just about anything else except perhaps an old KA-90, and I can't imagine the KA is any cheaper to run.  The biggest knock on the Duke is care & feeding of the TIO-541, so that is removed with the conversion.  Yes, you're left with a complex airframe to maintain, but anything in that class (TBM, KA, Cheyenne?, Conquest, etc.) will be equally complex IMO.

 

http://royalturbine.com/content/comparison

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/pilot-reports/general-pilot-reports/301-knots.html?start=4

 

I'd still want a TBM myself, but until the buy-in drops a lot I can't even dream of them of course... 

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

Well, that would be a serious drawback. :)  The TBM certainly offers a nice balance, and thus the market is still very strong for them as I'm sure you've already discovered.

AndyFromCB Veteran

AndyFromCB

Posted
Posted

Well, that would be a serious drawback. :)  The TBM certainly offers a nice balance, and thus the market is still very strong for them as I'm sure you've already discovered.

 

I know, trust me, looking at Meridians too. I only need about 700nm of reliable west IFR range and a Meridian can do that too. What I like about the TBM having have flown one is close to 400knot ground speeds in descent heading east and the pilot door.  What kills you on the meridian is insurance. Close to 2% of hull value first year vs 1.2% for TBM.

Parker_Woodruff Grand Master

Parker_Woodruff

Posted
Posted

Might be debatable...the buy-in for the RT Duke is a lot lower than just about anything else except perhaps an old KA-90, and I can't imagine the KA is any cheaper to run.  The biggest knock on the Duke is care & feeding of the TIO-541, so that is removed with the conversion.  Yes, you're left with a complex airframe to maintain, but anything in that class (TBM, KA, Cheyenne?, Conquest, etc.) will be equally complex IMO.

 

http://royalturbine.com/content/comparison

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/pilot-reports/general-pilot-reports/301-knots.html?start=4

 

I'd still want a TBM myself, but until the buy-in drops a lot I can't even dream of them of course... 

 

 

They're all complex.  Too many conundrums apart from the engine with the Duke.  and it's just not a practical airframe for the size.

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

Sentimentally, I LOVE that TBM900 - and that is what I would want if....

 

But for cost - There are some very very nice King Air C90's in the 400-500k range.  I watched someone I know shopping and purchase in that price range recently and acquire something surprisingly nice.  Yes you are burning twice as much fuel (two engines) and going slower, but there is more room and useful load, and heck, forget about overhaul.  At 450k, after you get another 3000hrs out of those mid time motors, you just walk away from the airplane and get another one.  Yes, do the hot section, but no don't bother on the major.  500k vs 3.7Mil buys a lot of jet A.

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

The older King Airs seem to be a tremendous value, and yes, you can run a lot of fuel through one before you end up spending more than a TBM or PC12.  The former owner of my plane moved up to an Ovation, and just last year into a KA-200 with recent P&I and the G1000 STC.  It was an easy transition from his G1000 Ovation... and he has been going all over in it taking lots of family or friends to the lake, Bahamas, football games, etc.  Not sure what he spent but it was under a million...and probably quite a bit.

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