Panel Changes - Should I put an Aspen in a 65C

[rob]

I'm considering putting an Aspen (and a 430) in my 65 C and want some opinions. 

The plane has about 4500 hours on it w/ 800 on the engine, no squaks, a gear up about 20 years ago. Good paint, good interior. I've got a pretty nice panel - Garmin 250XL, Garmin 340 Audio, Garmin 327 Xponder, and a KX155 w/ Glideslope. I've also got an S-Tec 30. My portable is an Aera 560. All told, it's one of the nicer older C models I've ever seen. Full engine analyser and fuel flow also.

I don't currently have GPSS Roll Steering, and my current indicator (KI-208 I think?) doesn't support the GPS. I'm not instrument rated, but have 500+ hours and am going to get my butt in gear and get the instrument rating soon. My mission generally involves long (500+ mile) Cross Countries.  I'm pretty sure I want a Garmin 430 at a minimum, but the additional costs of installing it and adding the roll steering and changing out the indicator to support the GPS make the Aspen costs make a bit more sense.

I'm conscious of the fact that when I'm done with this I'll have enough invested that I could have a pretty nice F or even J instead, but my mission doesn't currently need the extra room, and mine is among the faster C models I'm aware of anyhow. I don't want to put myself in a completely upside-down position on the plane, and would most likely finance the improvements.

So, spend my money - if you were me, what would you do? Should I skip the Aspen? Should I swap the KX-155 for the 430, or should I replace the 250XL? Dual GPS's would be nice? Should I remove em both and put in an SL-30 to interface to the 430?

[KSMooniac]

I think you've already talked yourself into it!

Seriously though, the cost of a new indicator and GPSS module are non-trivial, and today those funds are probably better applied to an Aspen instead.  GPSS + 430W + STEC30 is a great combo for single-pilot IFR.  If budget is big, I'd opt for the 430W, Aspen, SL30 in that order of priority.    You could also consider adding an electric+battery AI as a backup, and ditch the vacuum system entirely if you go with an Aspen.  That will avoid future expenses replacing vacuum pumps and overhauling vacuum gyros as well as virtually eliminating concerns with AI failure.  Perhaps skip the SL30 and keep the KX155 and spend that money on the electric AI?

Dual GPS is nice (I have 530W/430W) but realistically overkill IMO if you have a battery powered portable backup.  I'd rather have a 530W over a 430W so that I can see more data, but if you have a portable harnessed to the 430W you can configure the display pretty well to get all of the important data. 

It sounds like you realize you won't get 100% value out of the upgrades, but if your ownership horizon is pretty long, then you simply enjoy the extra utility and reliability.   A 430W makes instrument flying much, much easier and thus safer IMO.

[Cruiser]

Sounds like you intend to keep your plane for a long time. Equip it the way you want it.

Laws of avionics upgrades:

1. There is no way a VFR only (or IFR) pilot can justify an Aspen or a 430 for that matter.

2. What you already have is capable for your flights.

3. Remember, as soon as you are done with the installation there will be something new on the market that will replace what you just put in.

4. You can never have too much avionics

5. Never spend money on your current avionics when you can buy new.

6. When you are all done buying new, there will be something else you want.

[Guest Anonymous]

Quote: Cruiser

... 6. When you are all done buying new, there will be something else you want.

[fantom]

Quote: Cruiser

Laws of avionics upgrades:

1. There is no way a VFR only (or IFR) pilot can justify an Aspen or a 430 for that matter.

4. You can never have too much avionics

Because # 4 is so true, #1 is just plain wrong.

[scottfromiowa]

I believe your 250XL is VFR only, right?  You need 155XL or GNC300XL with KI202 or Garmin indicator for IFR...you would also need a MD41-1444 switch/annunciator.  Re-manufactured 300gnc's  are still available from Garmin.  A KI209 with glideslope would be nice for the KX155.  I can not justify an ASPEN or even a 430 as I already own and am flying the GNC300XL (VFR) until I save for other updates.  If you want to do it up big and can afford it...do it, but understand that you will NOT get the cost of equipment and installation cost back at re-sale.  I plan on pursuing my ticket next year and have discussed installation costs with my avionics installer/shop.  I will NOT be doing hard IFR, just want ability to get up and get down through a layer NOT at minimums...I will have my dash mounted 496 wired from the GNC300XL.  I would love to have your auto-pilot in my '66.

[rob]

Correct, the 250 Is VFR only. I misspoke earlier, I have the GS Indicator, I guess it's a 209 and not a 208.

My position on swapping to the 300 is that the 300 will add nothing to the value of the plane, and little to the flyability. The 430, while more expensive, will add value to the plane (probably about as much as the delta in price) and also will make it more attractive. When I do get my ticket, I intend to use it - If the conditions are safe, I'll fly the plane. I'd much rather do this with a WAAS equipped 430 than a 300XL that's not even produced anymore. For these reasons, I'm not considering the 300 at this time.

[scottfromiowa]

Does the 430 do weather?  No.  Will you be flying at minimums where Waas is valued...?  The GNC300 isn't produced, but it's still supported and is affordable.  It IS a better capability than the 250...as it's certified for IFR, just like the 430.  If I was you and didn't have a GNC300 I too would sell the 250 and buy a 430 as you don't need the MD41 annunciator.  Have fun getting your stuff and ticket.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I really like the Aspen option if you are going to stick with the C model or ANY airplane with a less than standard 6 pack.  It lets all your information be right in one, well laid out place.  I've flown a couple C models that I wouldn't even want to touch in IFR just because of the layout and not to mention old vacuum instruments.

I flew my M20J for almost a year with nothing more than 2 nav radios and DME (decent enough).  I did so safely, sometimes to IFR minimums at night.  I bought a newer airframe with decent radios because I prefer an updated airframe to updated avionics.

Long story short, don't fly IFR with junky radios and nav equipment.  Do you want an M20J with decent equipment or an M20C with exceptional equipment?  That's entirely your call and there's nothing wrong with either one.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Does the 430 do weather?  No.

[scottfromiowa]

or just panel mount a 496 for $2,000 and get terrain, xm and weather in a small footprint...

[Barry]

Putting money into a plane is a function of how much you like the plane ... regardless of age or model. Anyone who feels that an aircraft is an investment is in for a surprise. Folks buy a new Mooney for over a half mill +. When they sell it, how much money do they lose? Probably a lot more than you will, putting avionics that you covet into your plane, if you enjoy your plane and are going to keep it for awhile.

I'm putting a fair amount of money into my '66 "C" model. Why? Because they don't make '66 "C"s any more and it is the plane that suits me the best. I plan to keep it until I can no longer pass the medical. Enjoy yourself ... enjoy life.

Remember ... this is NOT a dress rehersal !!

[Piloto]

When I invest on my plane I consider the following:

1. Does it changes the mission profile? Long range tanks, turbo charge, payload increase, speed mods

2. Does it improve safety? Weather depiction, TCAS, Engine analizer, Terrain avoidance, voice annunciators, life jackets

3. Does it improve comfort? Noise reduction, reclinable seats, oxygen, more space, music

4. Does it improve dispatchability? Dual alternators, stby vac pump, lightweight starter

5. Does it improve appearance? Paint job, Interiors

6. Does it adds to the resale value? Avionics mods, airframe mods engine overhaul and paint job. 

The Aspen display will do nothing for the mission profile, safety, comfort or dispatchability. But it will make the panel prettier to you and that may be what is important to you. 

José

 

[rob]

Quote: Piloto

The Aspen display will do nothing for the mission profile, safety, comfort or dispatchability. But it will make the panel prettier to you and that may be what is important to you. 

José

 

[rob]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I really like the Aspen option if you are going to stick with the C model or ANY airplane with a less than standard 6 pack.  It lets all your information be right in one, well laid out place.  I've flown a couple C models that I wouldn't even want to touch in IFR just because of the layout and not to mention old vacuum instruments.

[KJATCt]

The Aspen gives you true dual power (vac AI and elec Aspen with battery backup). This is IMO an added mesure of safety. To get the same level of safety you will have to add a standby vac system. How does tha factor in with mission/cost?

[flight2000]

I agree with added safety and will be adding the same Aspen 1000 Pro and STEC 30 to my panel when I get back next summer.  The added safety and removal of the vacuum pump reliance is a huge feature to me.  I'd rather have backup electrical to get down in IMC than the back up vacuum.

Moving up to another airplane is not in my foreseeable future as I love the cost to operate my E, the speed, and the hauling capabilities.  I'm now at the point where I know what isin my aircraft, when it was replaced, and when it's due for replacement.  Moving to another plane would start this all over again and is not worth it right now. YMMV.

Brian

[fantom]

I've been flying with a friend who has an Aspen. The air data computer, and GPSS, not to mention the very easy to read displays and back up aspects has me hoping my HSI goes in the crapper. I've been hearing claims of $10K instaleed prices.

IMO, it adds to situational awareness, safety, comfort, and coolness.

[KSMooniac]

Gary, you forgot potential weight savings too if you can ditch a legacy King HSI system.    Even more if you ditch the vacuum system too.

[Piloto]

Quote: rob

 

I have trouble with this statement. The Aspen display inclues a battery backup and removes dependence on the vacuum system. This while including GPSS roll steering, an HSI, and redundancy in all the instruments. If you ask me, that's doing something for safety and comfort. Why do you disagree?

[bradp]

 

I'd vote for the Aspen / GPSS  for the following reasons:

1) Increased safety / redundancy over a pure vacuum system (Aspen + battery backup, + steam gauge secondary backup).  

2) Increased situational awareness with the HSI (and RMI capability of the Aspen) over an AI/DG/CDI combo.

3) The possibility of killing the vacuum system entirely (AI/DG replacement / overhauls aren't cheap).

4) Increased situational awareness in a high workload environment - GPSS steering would be a serious plus if going missed with a hold or any type of single pilot IFR environment.

However- you'd still need to get an electric AI if you wanted to ditch the vacuum system entirely ($$$).  The GPSS sterring component of the Aspen PFD also requires Airinc429 with bank angle command output.  I don't know if this limits you to the latest / greatest Garmin or King GPS receivers ($$$) or whether you'd be able to use it with something like a GNC 300 or KLN94 ($$).

 

[Guest Anonymous]

!

[fantom]

Quote: KSMooniac

Gary, you forgot potential weight savings too if you can ditch a legacy King HSI system.    Even more if you ditch the vacuum system too.

[rob]

Well, after much deliberation, I decided to go ahead with the install. The plane goes in at the end of July (when I'm out of the country so I can't pester the shop daily). I will be replacing the 250XL with a 430W, installing an Aspen Pro, mounting an AirGizmo for my Aera 560 in the right-side radio stack, and putting Nu-Lites on all the remaining round instruments.

I realize that I'm probably putting more into the plane than it'll ever be worth, but I don't intend on changing planes for years to come, I know this airframe and engine I'm satisfied with it mechanically. The final straw in the decision was essentially the unknown of moving up to a mid-body and possibly getting a maintenance nightmare. I'm comfortable with the plane I have and I really don't need the extra room, though the speed would be nice. 

I'll be sure to post pictures when it's all done.

[eaglebkh]

Ditch the 250XL, as it is VFR only anyway - the KX-155 will be more useful in the event of VHF only nav, not to mention doing your own VOR checks.  I got the Aspen for the same reasons you are.  Trying to get plane IFR ready and needed additional CDI.  For IFR, having 2 AI's is very comforting, and the GPSS will make the A/P seem much more effective.  You're making a good choice!