So, I go for my first pre buy inspection tomorrow.

[DaV8or]

I am sitting in my hotel room in Texas and tomorrow I go for the pre buy at Southwest Texas Aviation. I spent all day getting here and settling in. Tomorrow will be a real hands on learning experience. I really hope it all turns out OK. I will post how it goes for those that are about to, or have never gone through this before. Even if this plane fails, I have back ups. I will be a Mooney owner come Hell or high water, and given the thunderstorm with rain we are experienceing here right now, I think that is possible!

[mooneygirl]

You know, it will all turn out for the best. The plane we originally thought we "had to have" failed at pre-buy, but that led us to our "perfect for us" Ovation.  You will learn a lot for sure.  Let us know how it all goes!

[KSMooniac]

Good luck!  Enjoy the process/learning, and try not to get emotionally involved just yet. 

[Hank]

Congratulations! Spend as much time on the shop floor as possible without getting in the way, and participate in your annuals, too. It's a great way to learn how the aircraft is put together, which will help you learn not only how it works but why it works the way it does. The more I learn about my plane, the better I am able to fly it, and the better prepared I am when the unexpected pops up in the air.

Hope everything goes well!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Dave I might need to go to Waco at some point this week from Kerrville to pick up a suit for a wedding in San Antonio this weekend (totally forgot it on my commute down here yesterday morning).  If you want something to do at the end of the day today (if the WX settles down) or tomorrow I'd be more than happy to pick you up at HYI on my way up there if you want to come along for the ride.

[DaV8or]

Here's what happened today. I got there and it took Russell's mechanic about 40 minutes to find a real show stopper. They found a crack in the engine crankcase at the base of the number 2 cylinder. We die pened it twice to be sure. I don't have the tech here to download the pictures I took or I would post the crack. Mind you this is a plane that was just annualed last month by an A&P with a reputation here in Texas. The plane has flown about 1.5 hours since that annual.

I beleive the owner of the plane to be a very honest and stand up guy. He was shocked about the find, but very accomodating and I am released from any contractual obligation. He even paid what I owed to the shop for pre buy. He's pretty pissed about the annual he paid for. It was the first time he used this individual. He is still interested in working out a deal on this plane and so am I. It seems crazy, but the stuff aft of the firewall keeps sucking me in. Here is a partial list;

AIRFRAME

201 style cowling. 201 windshield. 231 wing tips with strobes. One peice belly. Gap seals everywhere. Wing root fairings. Dorsil fairing. Caliper reversal. 1/4" glass all around. Three point retractable seat belts. Upgraded gear motor with the pull style emergency gear extender. O+N bladders in '04. Leather interior. Paint about a 7 and not offensive colors.

AVIONICS

Garmin 530 with WAAS. MAC 1700 secondary. Garmin 330 Transponder. King KMA 24 audio panel. PS engineering four place. Narco digital DME. JPI 701 engine anyliser with fuel flow coupled to the 530 and tachometer. Accutrac II autopilot also coupled to the 530. Garmin 496 with XM linked to the 530. Original '69 panel layout (not great but OK).

The seller is willing to work with me, so I possibly could get this plane with a zero time factory reman engine for about half price. He says that if I don't buy the plane, he is going to have the crack simply repaired as cheaply as possible and a repair is not exceptable to me. He is willing to credit or help pay for the difference to get what I would need, which is a different engine. It's more than I had bargined for, but a new engine that had a bit of a warrantee and a known history with all ADs complied with for sure is an attraction. On the other hand, I still need to learn how to fly this thing and doing stop and goes and stalls on an unbroken in engine isn't the best idea. Also I'd be the test pilot on the way home.

I'm going to see a plane at All American tomorrow and maybe one at Mooneyland if I can get a hold of him.

So, a lot to think about...

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Dave I might need to go to Waco at some point this week from Kerrville to pick up a suit for a wedding in San Antonio this weekend (totally forgot it on my commute down here yesterday morning).  If you want something to do at the end of the day today (if the WX settles down) or tomorrow I'd be more than happy to pick you up at HYI on my way up there if you want to come along for the ride.

[Mcstealth]

Quote: DaV8or

So, those of you who don't know already, Parker Woodruff is an awesome dude! I was sitting in my crappy hotel room and he called me up and said, "you doing anything tonight?" Well he stopped off at San Marcos on his way down from Kerrville to Waco and picked me up. We flew down in to Waco in his super nice 201 with a seriously nice panel including a Garmin 500 in it. I was impressed. Really nice rig. Then we picked up his suit for the wedding, had a little fast food and flew back to San Marcos and it was a wonderful smooth night flight. I haven't had one of those in years. I think he might have done it just to prove that Texas isn't all thunderstorms and turbulence!

Thanks again Parker!!

[fantom]

Dave....how many hours on the engine?

[KSMooniac]

Dave, while that is a big squawk, I wouldn't necessarily call it a show stopper.  Engine cases crack through no fault of the owner/operator, unfortunately.  That is just the nature of castings sometimes.  The rest of the plane does sound very, very nice (except for the bladders ) with lots of mods that would cost a fortune to duplicate.  A cracked case isn't really airframe damage.  They can be repaired successfully (look up Divco in Tulsa) or the case can be replaced without spending  a ton of money on a reman.

Pending how many hours are on the engine and who did the rebuild/reman, I would explore a case repair or replacement.  I do not put a premium on a factory-anything anymore in light of all the modern cost-savings steps that have led to one AD after another.  If the rest of the components have a good history and pass inspection, then I would be very inclined to keep using them.  If the engine is say 1600+ SMOH, then a full overhaul or swap might be in order.

There aren't a lot of pre-J planes on the market loaded with the panel and mods you describe, so think hard!  An engine is perhaps the easiest of the "major" cost items to deal with, so if the rest of the plane checks out I would find a way to make it work.

[KSMooniac]

Oh yeah, great story about Parker!  Not surprising at all, too.

[fantom]

That's what I was driving at Dave....and Scott. Depending on many other factors, a crack in the case should not be a deal killer, for an otherwise very nice plane (except for all that rubber in the wings), and a seller who is willing to work with you.

A talk with the guy who did the annual could be very informative.

[DaV8or]

Thanks for the responses. What I know about the engine is this; it has about 5000 hours TT overhauled by G & N in 1991 and now has just shy of 1400 hours now. Still has good compressions, but there is no meaninful oil annalysis data on it and doing one now won't say much because the oil was just changed. To me it seems like it's just time for a new motor. Maybe I'm wrong.

[DaV8or]

Oh yeah, I did look at the planes at All American and Moonyland. The one at Jimmy's is really nice but he also wants really nice bucks for it. Flashy new paint and interior, decent panel with 430 but no WAAS. Unknown about the tanks, but they don't seem to be leaking now. They are billing the engine as 54 hours SMOH, however they do say this about the engine;

" Note on Engine; the engine was overhauled due to a cracked case (had to be torn down, so owner opted for an overhaul). At that time, the cylinders had only 429 hours since brand new. The owner and overhauler discussed the cylinders and opted to use the cylinders as removed but did replace piston pins and push rod assemblies with new as well as checking tappet clearances for wear prior to reassembly."

So, it really seems more like 483 hours SMOH to me. This airplane does not have the 201 windshield that I would really like, but it does have a simple cowl closure and I guess to make up for the windsheild, the guy put wing root fairings, the dorsil fin fairing and gap seals on.

The Mooneyland plane is pretty basic stock '65 with new leather in it, but dated and shotgun panel. Dugosh annuals and seems OK, but I think needs a bit too much work to get it where I'd like it. It's also not that cheap for what it is. I've already found cleaner and better at that price point. So it was close and I just had to see it since I was right here.

[KSMooniac]

Technically, if the cylinders/pistons still measured within specs when taken apart, I think they can be called overhauled but I'm certainly not an expert.  You could browse thru the Lycoming overhaul manual to learn more. 

Dealing with the engine will ultimately be easier than trying to duplicate mods, especially the 201 w/s, which is a very significant improvement.  The WAAS upgrade will cost $3k plus installation today, too, so factor that into the equation.  If it were me, I'd rather put that money into the engine work (perhaps split with the seller?) to your specs instead of into the additional mods, WAAS upgrade, etc. and taking the crapshoot with a different engine, especially if you paid more for the plane b/c it had less time on the engine.

It's a tough call!

[KSMooniac]

dp

[KSMooniac]

Thinking some more, if your purchase agreement put airworthiness squawks on the seller, then he should be on the hook for R&R of the engine, teardown, repair or replacement of the case, inspection of the rest of the components, esp. crank and cam, and reassembly.  That would return the plane to airworthy status with 1400 SMOH as it was before the crack was discovered and presumably ready to sell (again).  The seller may or may not want to do that, but the reality is he won't be able to sell as-is unless discounting appropriately.

Having said all that, the extra cost to get to a full overhaul status from what I described above is only cylinder overhaul (or replacement), and cam/cranks/accessory renewal as needed or desired.  Some of those might not pass inspection either and be subject to being repaired by the seller.

 

[Barry]

Since the engine has 1400 hours since OH, it seems like a GREAT opportunity to get an overhauled engine in the plane with the seller paying a significant amout of the cost. You end up with an engine you can count on and which will last for YEARS while paying less than doing it yourself!!

Just a thought ...

[DaV8or]

Quote: KSMooniac

Thinking some more, if your purchase agreement put airworthiness squawks on the seller, then he should be on the hook for R&R of the engine, teardown, repair or replacement of the case, inspection of the rest of the components, esp. crank and cam, and reassembly.  That would return the plane to airworthy status with 1400 SMOH as it was before the crack was discovered and presumably ready to sell (again).  The seller may or may not want to do that, but the reality is he won't be able to sell as-is unless discounting appropriately.

Having said all that, the extra cost to get to a full overhaul status from what I described above is only cylinder overhaul (or replacement), and cam/cranks/accessory renewal as needed or desired.  Some of those might not pass inspection either and be subject to being repaired by the seller.

 

[fantom]

Quote: DaV8or

         ....Like everything in aviation, seems like price creep is going on here.

[KSMooniac]

Gary is correct!  In my case, I was looking for exactly the plane you seem to have found (except for the bladders ).  I wanted an E or F due to budget, but with a standard 6-pack panel, IFR GPS, speed mods, a functional autopilot, and of course reasonable engine/airframe hours and cosmetics that were at least tolerable.  I initially thought I'd be in the 60-80k range, but my J appeared locally at 99k and had all that of course and more...the only downside was leaky tanks and 1400 SMOH engine.  I stretched to get it b/c that was an excellent price back in early 2007, and had to get a longer-term loan, but I'm happy I did it in the end.  It was hard to find most of the wish-list items on the pre-J planes because the folks that typically put that much into the plane keep them until they go out the door toes-up.

If you end up doing the engine to your specs, there is a very good chance you won't have to worry about it during your ownership period unless you keep it for a very long time.  You've got all of the expensive mods and you would be effectively buying them at 50 cents on the dollar, vs. getting a cheaper plane and modifying it over time on your nickel, paying full-price of course.  You'll also have the hassle of down-time when you could otherwise be actually using the plane!

I've concluded it is better to pay more upfront for a very good example than it is to get a fixer-upper at a lower price, unless you really really enjoy the tinkering aspect more than the flying aspect of ownership.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Though I'll say at $90k you can get a nice J with good IFR capability and a low-mid time engine.  Just get a good prebuy that won't leave you fixing airworthy squawks.

Mine was $76k at 1200 ish SMOH and mechanically sound...I had good avionics, just not up to date (NAV 1, 2, DME, HSI).

[DaV8or]

Ok, so here's what's happened since yesterday. The seller has made some calls and found that his local A & P will do a repair for $6000 including install and a field OH for $15,000. So he comes back to me and says he'll take $60,000 for the plane as is and I'll take all the risk if the engine turns out to un repairable. If the case and crank are bad, that could cost me another $5000 at least. I look at it this way;

$60,000 as is airplane with all the above upgrades.

$22-24,000 for either a overhauled or overhaul with new cylinders engine from a reputable source with good warranty.

$3,000 for Russell at Texas Southwest Aviation to install plus parts associated with that.

$500 for new engine mount rubber. We already know these need to go.

$8,000 (my est) for a panel redo to make it more like a 201 panel and add a Garmin SL-30 and Airgizmo for the 496.

Total= $93,500 to 95,500 and possibly more.

Reality check. This puts me into early 201 territory. I'm starting to think about saying goodbye to this plane and start shopping for 201s. It seems like there are a few out there that come close to what I want for the same money and would have better resale latter on. What do you think??

[HopePilot]

Go for the J!  I hadn't flown a J until I bought mine (only a C) and I can't believe how refined it feels.  Anyway there are a lot of planes out there and if you have the patience you will find the right plane eventually.  Seriously, I looked for two years and was just about to give up.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Priced with a runout engine, is this a $60,000 airplane?

 

You can get this one in the $60s and it could be a good deal if the damage has been well-repaired and the engine is legit.  Decent negotiating and you can have a panel like mine in it for the figures you're talking on that M20E.

 

I say lowball the current seller or hit the road.