Deer Strike @ KFME - need some help

[DonMuncy]

When I first saw the deer, I thought that was the left ear and most of the head cut off. Then looking closer, I think that is the right ear, with the left ear under the head and the nose pointed away from the camera. What do you think.

[N33GG]

So sorry to hear about your misfortune.  I have deer all over my airport, and I have come sooooooo close a few times.

 

I put a scimitar on my plane about a year ago.  I don't know about approvals or performance results for an F-Model, but it is amazing on my C-Model.  Highly recommended.

 

Keep us posted on your progress, glad nobody was hurt, and good luck!

[N601RX]

The FAA forced us to put a fence around our small rural home airport. It goes along the road and stops at the edge of the woods. Nothing to stop the deer though

[Alan Fox]

There is an AD regarding prop strike and in all cases a teardown is required. The insurance companies have decided to bite the bullet on the cost and not face a potential liability. There is also a lot of stuff on the internet about prop strike/engine teardown, precisely about the difficult decision whether or not to go for an overhaul. My impression is the on an engine with only 375 SMOH it would not be advisable to go for the full overhaul. I also think that that the difference in cost would be greater than $12K. There is also no agreement to what a teardown does to the value of the airplane, some think that on a mid-time or more engine it is a plus if the airplanes is not used in commercial operations and can go past the factory recommended TBO. If the propeller is deemed to be repairable by the prop shop the insurance will pay for the full repair, including o/h of the governor. I believe that magnetos must also be overhauled, some recommend the same for the alternator.

And while on the subject of the propeller does anybody know what is latest on the Hartzell "scimitar" in terms of performance? Is the conversion worthwhile assuming that your old propeller has some resale value?

Hose , you are incorrect , A non counterweighted Lycoming engine as per ad requires a prop flange  runout check , a dye check inspection for cracks on the flange , and the accessory drive gears to be checked for cracks with dye penetrant and to replace the rear crank bolt and locking tab.........It takes about 12 hours of work , and about 80.00 worth of parts......

[Alan Fox]

Your experience is different than mine. The prop in my situation (this was 2007) was caused by small bits of FOD from the landing light shattering.  I know that there's been talk that if a running Lycoming hits a blade of grass or a butterfly in flight than a tear down is required. My insurance company and my MX did not see it that way.  They saw a damaged light housing, light, gouged paint and a gouged prop face.  Prop was timed out in calendar years only. Overhaul was $3700 IIRC, insurance gave me $1000 towards it.  The word "betterment" came up several times in the conversation.  It was the company's (Falcon I believe) policy not to pay to make the plane better than it was pre-incident. I was a bit irked, but at the end of the day we paid the other $2700 and moved on...  I hope you're right and that they give him everything he wants...time will tell!

That really sucks , I had a prop strike with my B model , my insurance was at the time AIG (chartiss) they paid for a used prop that was three years old 7000.00, they paid East Coast propeller 500,00 to cut the blades down to a -2 , and they paid 500.00 for a used spinner , and 2000.00 for the AD inspection.....the prop was well beyond the calendar time , I think it was 270 hrs , and 13 years since overhaul......  In reality I paid 5500 for the prop , sold the Scout spinner for 500.00 , paid Randy at East Coast 500 to cut the blades , and bought a used spinner for 500.00    .... Since I did the work myself , I actually made money ......At the time (2008) there was no top prop replacement for the Mooney , and a new Hartzell was over 9000.00  And my original prop was a MaCauley  (B Mooneys and early Cs) had them , they were non AD and at the time Mooney props were impossible to find........I did my research and found out the only difference between a Scout prop and the Mooney was the blades were an inch  shorter.....The insurance co was great , they didn't drop me or raise my premium.....    The MT prop is a popular mod on scouts ,   Helped me out bigtime....

[whiskytango]

Sorry to hear of your incident.  A buddy of mine that owns a Cirrus had the exact same thing happen at KFME about 1 month ago!

 

As far as repair shops, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES let your insurance company steer you to Hagerstown Aircraft Services!!!  I can assure you from personal experience that the repair will take far longer than you could ever imagine.  They have been correctly described as the Roach Motel of aircraft repair facilities; you can check in, but you can't check out!!

[Shadrach]

That really sucks...

That's a sweet deal. Now that I think of it, I was with AIG at the time (I remember the adjuster's email was joel@aig...) anyway, my adjuster insisted that he had done his best for me. I too had the prop work done at ECP. First rate service with those guys. We were at the Friday Auction in Manheim and stopped in Lititz to pick up the prop on the way home. Randy gave us a 20 min tour of the facility and some solid advice about servicing Hartzells (less is more) and showed us how and why many mechanics tend to herniate prop seals. That was the most positive part of the whole ordeal. That and the fact that my rate actually went down the following year...

[AmigOne]

Shadrach, on 02 Oct 2013 - 5:18 PM, said:

Prop was timed out in calendar years only. Overhaul was $3700 IIRC, insurance gave me $1000 towards it. The word "betterment" came up several times in the conversation. It was the company's (Falcon I believe) policy not to pay to make the plane better than it was pre-incident. I was a bit irked, but at the end of the day we paid the other $2700 and moved on... I hope you're right and that they give him everything he wants...time will tell!

You may be right but I always thought that the policy was to repair if possible, replace with a serviceable one if available or a new one if the two first options are not feasible. It is not a question of making it better but one of making it equal to before the accident and put you back in the air. If equal is not available they have to bite the bullet. Hopefully others will comment on their experiences.

[Shadrach]

Sorry to hear of your incident.  A buddy of mine that owns a Cirrus had the exact same thing happen at KFME about 1 month ago!

 

As far as repair shops, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES let your insurance company steer you to Hagerstown Aircraft Services!!!  I can assure you from personal experience that the repair will take far longer than you could ever imagine.  They have been correctly described as the Roach Motel of aircraft repair facilities; you can check in, but you can't check out!!

HAS has been through some additional issues since the Tracy Potter (the owner) passed away suddenly. They were not known for their fast turnaround times even before.  I have had very reasonable dealings with Austin and Pamela Heffernan at Royal Aircraft services at KHGR. All of our interactions have not been perfect (but when are they ever?), but they have always righted any issues ASAP and maintained a professional attitude through the process... 

[Mooneymite]

Hose , you are incorrect , A non counterweighted Lycoming engine as per ad requires a prop flange  runout check , a dye check inspection for cracks on the flange , and the accessory drive gears to be checked for cracks with dye penetrant and to replace the rear crank bolt and locking tab.........It takes about 12 hours of work , and about 80.00 worth of parts......

Two references for you:

 

http://www.caa.si/fileadmin/user_upload/pageuploads/AD-NOTE/AD-2004/038_FAA_AD_2004-10-14.pdf

 

http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/servicebulletins/SB%20475C%20(01-30-2003)/Crankshaft%20Gear%20Modification%20and%20Assembly%20Procedures.pdf

 

Exerpts:

 

 

Compliance 

 (e) Compliance with this AD is required as indicated before further flight if the engine has 

experienced a propeller strike as defined in paragraphs (i) and (j) of this AD, unless already done. 

 (f) Inspect, and if necessary repair, the crankshaft counter bored recess, the alignment dowel, the 

bolt hole threads, and the crankshaft gear for wear, galling, corrosion, and fretting in accordance with 

steps 1 through 5 of Lycoming Mandatory Service Bulletin (MSB) No. 475C, dated January 30, 

2003. 

 (g) Remove the existing gear retaining bolt and lockplate from service, and install a new bolt and 

lockplate, in accordance with steps 6 and 7 of Lycoming MSB No. 475C, dated January 30, 2003.

 

http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/servicebulletins/SB%20475C%20(01-30-2003)/Crankshaft%20Gear%20Modification%20and%20Assembly%20Procedures.pdf

 

 

 

 

Definition of Propeller Strike 

 (i) For the purposes of this AD, a propeller strike is defined as follows: 

 (1) Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, that requires repair to the propeller other 

than minor dressing of the blades. 

 (2) Any incident during engine operation in which the propeller impacts a solid object that 

causes a drop in revolutions per minute (RPM) and also requires structural repair of the propeller 

(incidents requiring only paint touch-up are not included). This is not restricted to propeller strikes 

against the ground. 

 (3) A sudden RPM drop while impacting water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium, where 

propeller damage is not normally incurred. 

 (j) The preceding definitions include situations where an aircraft is stationary and the landing 

gear collapses causing one or more blades to be substantially bent, or where a hanger door (or other 

object) strikes the propeller blade. These cases should be handled as sudden stoppages because of 

potentially severe side loading on the crankshaft flange, front bearing, and seal. 

[AmigOne]

Lycoming's Mandatory Service Bulletin 533A (amended by SB 533B)

Hose , you are incorrect , A non counterweighted Lycoming engine as per ad requires a prop flange  runout check , a dye check inspection for cracks on the flange , and the accessory drive gears to be checked for cracks with dye penetrant and to replace the rear crank bolt and locking tab.........It takes about 12 hours of work , and about 80.00 worth of parts......

Lycoming defines a prop strike as "Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, that requires repair to the propeller other than minor dressing of the blades ... [or] in which the propeller impacts a solid object which causes a drop in RPM and also requires structural repair of the propeller (incidents requiring only paint touch up are not included) ... [or] A sudden RPM drop while impacting water, tall grass, or similar non-solid medium, where propeller structural damage is not normally incurred ..." It goes on to say that in any of these cases "the safest procedure is to remove and disassemble the engine and completely inspect the reciprocating and rotating parts, including crankshaft gear and dowel parts. Any decision to operate an engine which was involved in a [prop strike] without such inspection must be the responsibility of the agency returning the aircraft to service."

If I had a prop strike I don't think I would want the insurance company to be calling you for an estimate...in addition I think that you are misreading what I wrote. Jose (HoseA is one of the sons of the fireman, the other is HoseB)

[orionflt]

to go one step further with the prop strike inspection talk, lycomings service bulletin SB 533 states:

"Circumstances of a propeller strike cannot always be used as predictors for the extent of engine damage or

its future reliability. There can be varying degrees of damage to an engine and propeller from a propeller strike. The initial damage can be hidden but becomes progressive and worsens with time and wear. Given these  possibilities and  the  fact that there  is no identified  clear, quantifiable  threshold  limit or gradient standard  to reliably measure  the  extent of damage to an engine, Lycoming  Engines can only 

recommend BEFORE FURTHER FLIGHT, that you complete the tasks in the sequential order shown in the  Engine Inspection Checklist After Propeller Strike included in this Service Bulletin as the corrective action 

for a propeller strike.  NOTE

The agency that returns the aircraft to service is responsible for the decision to operate an  engine that had a propeller strike. Lycoming Engines does not take the responsibility for the  decision to return the engine to service after a propeller strike."

then they tell you to tear down the engine to inspect it, obviously lawyer talk but that is why the insurance companies are paying for a complete tear down inspection vs the crankshaft inspection with gear replacement.

 

Brian

[Shadrach]

 

 

 (3) A sudden RPM drop while impacting water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium, where 

propeller damage is not normally incurred. 

 

I love liability lawyers... You can get a sudden but slight RPM drop (or surge) while doing a run up in gusty conditions...

[orionflt]

I love liability lawyers... You can get a sudden but slight RPM drop (or surge) while doing a run up in gusty conditions...

careful you don't get the lawyers started, they will be having you tear down your engine for a prop strike if you fly thru a heavy rain that lowers your RPM

[Mooneymite]

I love liability lawyers... You can get a sudden but slight RPM drop (or surge) while doing a run up in gusty conditions...

 

I'm no lawyer, or physics major, but I suspect the asymetric forces are the culprit.  Cycling the prop on run-up certainly causes a sudden RPM loss, but hopefully no damage.  

 

I think prop strikes are grossly under-reported.  I have seen prop strikes where the "corrective action" by the owner was to clean off the prop.  I saw a twin engine aircraft  hit both props as he crested a grassy knoll with subsequent RPM decrease.  No recognition, or remedial action.  The owner/pilot seemed to have no understanding that what had occurred was a prop strike and required both engines to be inspected!

 

I've had two friends who had engine failures (one on the ground, one in flight) because the crankshaft bolt sheared.  I can only speculate that there had been an un-reported prop strike in the past.  That bolt/lockplate must be replaced with a new one using a specific anti-seize to give the proper torque reading.  Lycoming is very specific.....

 

According to the AD, there's not much wiggle room on what constitutes a prop-strike, but if it isn't in the logbook, it didn't happen.....apparently.

[Shadrach]

I'm no lawyer, or physics major, but I suspect the asymetric forces are the culprit.  Cycling the prop on run-up certainly causes a sudden RPM loss, but hopefully no damage.  

 

I think prop strikes are grossly under-reported.  I have seen prop strikes where the "corrective action" by the owner was to clean off the prop.  I saw a twin engine aircraft  hit both props as he crested a grassy knoll with subsequent RPM decrease.  No recognition, or remedial action.  The owner/pilot seemed to have no understanding that what had occurred was a prop strike and required both engines to be inspected!

 

I've had two friends who had engine failures (one on the ground, one in flight) because the crankshaft bolt sheared.  I can only speculate that there had been an un-reported prop strike in the past.  That bolt/lockplate must be replaced with a new one using a specific anti-seize to give the proper torque reading.  Lycoming is very specific.....

 

According to the AD, there's not much wiggle room on what constitutes a prop-strike, but if it isn't in the logbook, it didn't happen.....apparently.

I should have been more specific.  strong, gusty winds can cause sudden changes in RPM while in the run up area at a constant throttle  setting. As in set the throttle for 1800RPM (or whatever). If there is a strong and variable gust it can and will cause a drop in RPM without touching anything else.

[mschmuff]

Wow!! A lot of great information coming in - thank you all!  I spoke to the insurance company and I can have anyone do the engine work.....Mattituck, PannYan, Columbia, Aero of Winchester, VA..........Any one better than the other???

[orionflt]

Mattituck has been out of business for a couple of years now, so in spite of their prior excellent reputation I wouldn't recommend them. 

 

Jim

Mattituck was bought out by continental yrs ago, recently they closed down the plant in NY, but they still rebuild engines in Alabama.

after looking around at different shops I had decided columbia or penn yann were the best choices. ultimately i went with a local builder with a great reputation but took alot longer then the normal engine shops. cost was about the same but I was able to be more involved with the repair.

[Shadrach]

I like Tom Schwietz of Aero Engines of Winchester, but many will bulk at the sight of his shop (it's pretty messy).  He's treated me well and knows what he's doing. He's also local to you which would be a big plus in my book...

[mschmuff]

I've heard good things about Aero as well....

[gwcolwell]

Want some venison recipes? 

[jetdriven]

Zephyr down in Florida is well thought of, too. They are fairly local to me and might get my business some day due to proximity. I've heard good things about Aero as well. I think if I was located in DC I would have to give Tom a very hard look.

Jim

I asked zephyr about a "virtual TDI" when our engine's lifters failed. You know, open it up, swap the cam and lifters, and reassemble. After all the non-negotiable things they were going to do the price swelled up to over 12 or 14 grand.

[quik flite]

I would call Dorn @ Webers Aircraft a Mooney Service Center and let them worry about it, they do this everyday and youll be glad you did, it wont cost any more and you wont have to do much. They are at Lancaster ,PA 717-569 2691

Excellent work and always helpful.

[Alan Fox]

Signature engines in Ohio  the best...