4 bounced landings in a row

[HopePilot]

Another vote for full flaps, except in high wind conditions.  I want the plane as slow as possible and I don't mind dancing on the pedals a bit, as she's a real nice partner.

[N201MKTurbo]

The first time I flew a plane I landed it without help and it was a greaser.

 

The old guy that took me flying told me "landing is easy, just pull the power back to idle and try as hard as you can to fly the plane 1 foot off the ground. as it slows down pitch up to keep it 1 foot off the ground. It will eventually settle right down on the runway."

 

It has worked on every plane I have ever flown, except that 737 sim. That plane finally touched down about two miles past the end of the runway.

[bd32322]

I had a similar issue. Greasers for the first few hours of Mooney ownership. Impressed instructor and wife. Earthquake landings after that for 50 hours and have now finally settled at "consistently average".

Point being, take your time, and use the go around. There will be landings that are not soft, but they dont have to be unsafe with porpoises or anything close to that. During the first 50 hours or so of Mooney ownership, I often had to go around without even attempting to land, because there was no way I was slowing it down to POH approach speeds.

[Mooneymite]

Another vote for full flaps, except in high wind conditions.  I want the plane as slow as possible and I don't mind dancing on the pedals a bit, as she's a real nice partner.

In my earlier post, I mentioned partial flaps for transitioning newbies until they get the hang of squeekers. Obviously, a proficient pilot can properly land the aircraft at any appropriate flap setting. Full flaps causes a more rapid deceleration which necessitates a more aggressive elevator input; partial flaps mitigates this and allows the new pilot to "get the picture". I am not advocating partial flaps as a panacea....it has been a successful tool in transitioning new pilots. However the transition is not complete until the pilot is a master at all flap settings. Use whatever flap setting is appropriate for conditions.

[jnisley]

Never thought to relate experience with flap settings but come to think of it, my first 200 Mooney hours or so I mostly used 1/2 flaps when landing, the last 250 hours I mostly use full flaps (unless its very windy)

[Oscar Avalle]

Put me in the "land with Takeoff flaps" camp. I also notice taxiing in that my trim is usually very close to the Takeoff mark.

 

When the wind is calm, I actually have trouble landing, generally too high, and need full flaps to get down and usually float and land long. My initial CFI beat into me with the Skyhawk, 10º on downwind, 20º on base, adjust as needed on final.

 

My Owner's Manual for the Mooney says to add Takeoff flaps no later than base leg [i use downwind before dropping gear to descend], and adjust flaps as needed on final to maintain glide slope. But I rarely take any out unless I add too much on final. Our flaps are not very effective, so that doesn't happen often.

 

Then watch your speed—80 over the numbers with the throttle not at idle is too fast and too much power for an F, although it may work well for a 231.

 

Good luck and enjoy your new ride!

I am in the same camp. I like full flaps landings. 100 on downwind, 90 base and 80 final. 75 over the numbers and then try to keep the plane flying...

[jlunseth]

Whats the verdict about landing with speedbrakes out?

Don Kaye wrote a great short piece on landing with speedbrakes, anyone interested might do a search. My own take is that they are pretty much irrelevant, they have not much effect at landing speeds. They may help anchor the plane on the runway in strong wind conditions, on the other hand you really do not want them out if a go around is necessary. You do not want to deploy them low to the ground though, because there will be an immediate negative vertical speed increase.

[231Pilot]

Have you determined the proper airspeed by calculating your actual stall speed and multiplying by 1.2?  Regardless of the numbers in the manual, if you practice stalls and record your speeds in the landing configuration you should have the right speed for your aircraft when you cross the numbers.  It should let you settle down on the runway everytime unless you flare too early, or come in at the wrong pitch attitude.

[aeromancfi]

Suggest you have your airspeed indicator and connecting tubing checked - might be reading low due to leaks.. Happened to me in a 172 50 years ago, kept floating down the runway as if I had a tailwind. Mechanic found a cracked hose on the pitot line.

Wouldn't happen today, I ignore the A/S on short final. A few years ago I ferried a Mooney from a private strip to a maintenance facility, Airspeed got to 60 mph on take off, we lifted off and I looked down-- still reading 60 while we are climbing 700 ft/min at full throttle.  Not a problem. Attitude+ Power = Performance. Landed without incident A/s still pointing to 60.!!   

 

aeromancfi

[SpamPilot]

I'm still waiting for decent conditions to get back in the air.  Let me say in the meantime that all this feedback is a tremendous help.

 

In each of my four bounced landings, the nose wheel never touched, at least not on the first bounce.  I distinctly remember the airplane "dropping" right before the bounce.  The nose was up, but given that the stall warning horn was not going off, I probably had additional elevator authority and could have softened/eliminated the bounce by a touch more backpressure on the yoke just at the right time.

 

The reason that I might have been reluctant to increase backpressure could be because I noticed, in the flare, vertical speed is extremely sensitive to angle of attack.  Just a hair of additional backpressure and the plane wants to get airborne again.    I am thinking it's even more sensitive at low weight.  Slower speeds should mitigate this pitch sensitivity somewhat.

 

I really appreciate the comments from those pointing out that maybe the airspeed indicator is leading me astray for one or another reason and a little stall practice at different weights will help to establish the true stall IAS.

 

I also like the comment about the plane being very light on its feet with full flaps.  Especially with the low weight, that's definitely how she felt, like the proverbial butterfly with sore feet.  I intend to try different flap settings with my instructor to understand if that's another tool I can use, or if it's not advisable.

[Mooneymite]

I'm still waiting for decent conditions to get back in the air.  Let me say in the meantime that all this feedback is a tremendous help.

 

In each of my four bounced landings, the nose wheel never touched, at least not on the first bounce.  I distinctly remember the airplane "dropping" right before the bounce.  The nose was up, but given that the stall warning horn was not going off, I probably had additional elevator authority and could have softened/eliminated the bounce by a touch more backpressure on the yoke just at the right time.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

Perhaps you're starting the flare (rounding out) too high?

[sleepingsquirrel]

There are only three secrets to perfect landings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, no one knows what they are!

 

 

 

 

Stolen quote

[Marauder]

Your comment about back pressure and being sensitive to going airborne again smacks of too much airspeed. If you have the speed nailed, you should not be going airborne again. The stall warning should be going off and a good indicator when you are near the correct airspeed in the flare. If you do find yourself going airborne again, arresting the decent and salvaging the landing can be done with a little bit of throttle (just be cognitive of runway length). If you do let it climb above a normal flare height, the wing will stop flying and you will be dropping it in unless you manage it with some power.

[jimluper]

Lets see when do I start getting ready to land. On a cross county (which is 90% of my flying) about 50 miles out. I start thinking about a nice slow rate of decent. Then I think about when I want to slow her down. Again, I allow myself time to settle in. Trim her for the approach, slow to short final. Flap settings depend on how much cross wind I have. Then there you are 10 foot up and that's the best part of the flight. 

 

Let talk about the last 10 seconds of flight:

 

After 50 years of flying, I can honestly say that in my youth I did bounce a plane once or twice. However, that has been many years ago. Landing and takeoffs require an awareness of the plane and a feel for what it is telling you. This is the art of flying. When on take off you don't need to look at the gauges to know when she is ready to go, your feel it in your finger tips. The same is true for landing, those gauges are a guide, let the plane tell you when she is ready to sit down and don't rush it. Get your pitch set and as she settles in give a little more back pressure on the yoke. She will sit down nicely on the mains and then as the speeds bleeds off the nose will come to earth. If you keep rushing your landings, and YES if your bouncing your rushing things, your prop is the next thing to get nicked. Then you will be paying to tear down the engine.

 

[FloridaMan]

Whoa. I'm late to the party on this one. 

 

I always come in with full flaps -- well, almost always. If winds are gusting to over 20 knots, I've sometimes only used 3 instead of 4 pumps of flaps, but afterwards thought I could have been fine with full flaps. I also always cross the numbers at 80mph in my M20F. Anything slower unless I'm real light and the plane drops onto the runway. 

 

I've only had once incident where I skipped along and went around and that was when I was new to my airplane. The corrective action is to make sure you're flaring. A lot of people get away with landing Mooneys without flaring (less flaps, more nose up trim) -- this is how I landed my plane when I first got it. Now I do my best to have my yoke all the way in my lap at touch down. Stay loose on the rudders -- and you may think you're loose, but your feet should be constantly moving to ensure you're loose when it comes to flying in the flare and keeping the plane moving straight down the runway. 

 

I've got a feeling you were lighter than you were used to and/or the DA was significantly different on that last landing. 

 

And while we're in the habit of posting videos of porpoising (and this is no direct anything towards the original poster, as I read it as your nose wheel never hit, just showing the video):

 

[merrja]

80 mph?  I come in over the fence at 75 mph and if short field landing in no wind, shoot for 70 over the numbers in my "f" model.... 5 mph makes a huge difference in the airplane wanting to fly.  

[BigTex]

You might want to pick up Donald Kaye's excellent video on landing techniques.  In the video he talks about bouncing and the hazards of coming in too fast.  He comes across the numbers at 70 knots.  He did say that if given a choice when he bounced, he'd rather be too fast than too slow.  If too fast, you have airspeed to salvage the landing.

 

What's also key from his video is that if you don't hear the stall warning, you're too fast.

[AmigOne]

With more than 1500 hrs of Mooney time, 201 and C, I have botched my share of landings but only a handful of times I have gone around one of them at night (that was a 3 bouncer which the night made more scary) .  Every landing can be recovered with proper technique.  The videos showed a perfect example of pilots frozen at the controls not knowing what was going on. My normal technique: proper airspeed is obvious, never full flaps  (I use t/o flaps) in my opinion full flaps make the airplane want to float in a level attitude.  This is because if you have not trimmed properly to relieve back pressure the nose will want to go down while you are holding back pressure.  Therefore it is very important to relieve this back pressure after setting the flaps.  Near the ground make small but constant back pressure inputs.  The tendency can be to make big ones and at that point trouble will start.  At touchdown the nose will end up a lot higher than you think it should but this will ensure that the mains will contact first.  My recovery when bouncing on the first landing is I immediately bringing the nose up and adding some power.  This will keep the nose up and after contact you'll have enough speed to help the nose come down smoothly.  In general if I have enough runway and there is something I don't like about the airplane's attitude I will add a bit of power until I get things right.     

[Mooneymite]

......  Every landing can be recovered with proper technique.    .......

 

This reminds me of an old Marine aviation saying:  "A smoking hole is a small price to pay for a $hit-hot approach!".

 

A graceful go-around can make it look like that was the pilot's intention all along!  

[Wildhorsesracing]

During my initial flight training my instructor would make make do "high speed taxis" both ways on the runway with just enough power to get the nose wheel off of the ground but not enough to get airborne. He had me do it to get the feel of the proper landing speed and sight picture of what a landing should be like. Whenever I start having issues landing then I do a few of them again to get the feel and sight picture back.

It also taught me to fly the plane all the way until you reach the taxiway...

[BigTex]

Another training aid that I had an instructor due that was very effective is to find a long runway and request a land long request.  Then come in, flair and then fly it down the length of the runway just a couple of feet off the ground.  Takes some practice but it's an incredibly useful tool in perfecting landings.

[Wildhorsesracing]

Another training aid that I had an instructor due that was very effective is to find a long runway and request a land long request.  Then come in, flair and then fly it down the length of the runway just a couple of feet off the ground.  Takes some practice but it's an incredibly useful tool in perfecting landings.

 

Not to get off topic but when I was getting a tailwheel endorsement my instructor took me up for crosswind practice.  Sadly the day we went was no wind so we approximated it by landing on one wheel and "flying" down the runway with only the one wheel touching the whole time and then taking off as if you needed to go around.    It was a fine balance of rudder, aileron, elevator and throttle to keep the one wheel down and the others in the air.

 

It was an awesome experience and teaches you total aircraft control - especially coordinating your hands with your feet! 

[eaglebkh]

Late post...  Sorry...

 

It was the hardest thing for me when transitioning (and still can be) to get used to slowing down so much for a landing.  The speed envelope of the Mooney is so vast, a pilot really has to learn how to fly in 2 different flight regemes.  Those crisp control repsonses at normal speeds become sort of mushy, which requires some adaptation.

 

The Mooney also seems to like the ground effect, so the speed really has to bleed down just prior to touchdown.

[1964-M20E]

Not to get off topic but when I was getting a tailwheel endorsement my instructor took me up for crosswind practice.  Sadly the day we went was no wind so we approximated it by landing on one wheel and "flying" down the runway with only the one wheel touching the whole time and then taking off as if you needed to go around.    It was a fine balance of rudder, aileron, elevator and throttle to keep the one wheel down and the others in the air.

 

It was an awesome experience and teaches you total aircraft control - especially coordinating your hands with your feet! 

When getting my PPL the insturtor and I would do this in the a 152.  It was quite fun and educational.

[gsengle]

I have manual speed brakes.  For me, I do not land with them out.  One more thing to deal with if a go around is required.

 

speed brakes (at least on my ovation) are approved for use all the way to landing.  they do nothing at slower speeds/higher angles of attack.  so there is little reason to leave em extended, but if you do, frankly, you can go around with them extended just fine...  the are approved to use landing, precisely because they don't impact the go around.