Ovation 1 to Ovation 3 via the Midwest STC

[StevenL757]

Welcome to the abyss:)

 

Yes.  I've been ignoring the 800-pound gorilla (no WAAS or ADS/B) for too long...

[LANCECASPER]

Mooney now sells the 310HP STC for $4995 through the Mooney Service Centers.

 

310HP STC MOONEY.pdf

 

 

That more or less than it used to cost? And for that $$$ all you get is the paperwork, yes?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Bob Minnis used to charge $6750

[kmyfm20s]

Was that fire walled? Did you try 2550 or 2500rpm? Wondering what your TAS would have been.. Fuel flow would have probably dropped down to 9.5ish.... That's fast AND efficient! Nice

9.5 GPH, ran a little ruff and it was almost 100 Lop. 10.4 GPH was peak or just slightly Lop and 10kts better speed. On this flight it was the same speed as the last flight at 2650 rpm and 50 Rop.

[Matías Equiza]

On 11/21/2012 at 7:16 AM, harrispa said:

The 310 hp stc does not require a different engine. It is basically a power boost by allowing the engine to turn 2700 rpm for the 310 hp. It also requires the 3 blade Hartzell prop and perhaps a governor mod. This has been written about on previous topics on Mooneyspace, and there are write ups on this subject if you search online. I recently talked briefly to Midwest about this and I recall the paperwork costs in the 2k range for the stc, but you should call them to confirm. Also, the Mooney factory uses this stc for the Ovation 3. I have a copy of the POH supplement for this stc which I found online. Send me an email if interested.

Paul

Hello, how are you? Could you help me with a copy for My M20L in Argentina?

 

Thank you so much 

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, Matías Equiza said:

Hello, how are you? Could you help me with a copy for My M20L in Argentina?

 

Thank you so much 

What good would this STC do for you? This is for an Eagle (M20S) or an Ovation (M20R). You own an M20L.

[1980Mooney]

41 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

What good would this STC do for you? This is for an Eagle (M20S) or an Ovation (M20R). You own an M20L.

This is the Argentine plane owner who owns a M20L that was previously converted to a liquid Rocket TSIO550L - and now is in the process of converting it to a plain IO550. (In multiple posts below looking for the original STC converting from L to IO550 which is a 280 hp IO550 conversion similar to an Ovation 1). Hence the desired  increase from 280 to 310 hp. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:21 AM, 1980Mooney said:

This is the Argentine plane owner who owns m a M20L that was previously converted to a liquid Rocket TSIO550L - and now is in the process of converting it to a plain IO550. (In multiple posts below looking for the original STC converting from L to IO550 which is a 280 hp IO550 conversion similar to an Ovation 1). Hence the desired  increase from 280 to 310 hp. 

Exactly my point. There is no precedent for an M20L which has received the STC for the IO-550 to go from 280 to 310hp. It doesn't exist. If you look at the history of his posts, before long he'll want paperwork for ceramic tiles on the exterior because the Space Shuttle had them.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly my point. There is no precedent for an M20L which has received the STC for the IO-550 to go from 270 to 310hp. It doesn't exist. If you look at the history of his posts, before long he'll want paperwork for ceramic tiles on the exterior because the Space Shuttle had them.

Actually, I find the Argentine Aviation Authority refreshingly pragmatic. From the firewall back all long bodies are the same structure.  This plane has already been certified by the FAA to fly all day long with the 350 hp liquid 550 - so what is the big deal with flying 310 HP?  Ditching the Liquid 550 reduces weight on the nose which is all good - CGs will be just fine.  Rocket Engineering has proven you can take a mid-body K with no modification to the structure or flight controls and flog it all day long with 305 HP.  I fly my IO550 Missile all the time wide open and generally at max 3,200 lbs and the single puck brakes are just fine.  This proposed conversion from a 350 hp Liquid to 310 hp NA 550 will actually make his Mooney more reliable and safer at the end of the day.  And raising the HP to 310 is just a RPM paperwork exercise (his existing prop is quite capable) - just an STC that puts paperwork form over substance.

[Matías Equiza]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

What good would this STC do for you? This is for an Eagle (M20S) or an Ovation (M20R). You own an M20L.

Hello, for a M20R.

[Matías Equiza]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Actually, I find the Argentine Aviation Authority refreshingly pragmatic. From the firewall back all long bodies are the same structure.  This plane has already been certified by the FAA to fly all day long with the 350 hp liquid 550 - so what is the big deal with flying 310 HP?  Ditching the Liquid 550 reduces weight on the nose which is all good - CGs will be just fine.  Rocket Engineering has proven you can take a mid-body K with no modification to the structure or flight controls and flog it all day long with 305 HP.  I fly my IO550 Missile all the time wide open and generally at max 3,200 lbs and the single puck brakes are just fine.  This proposed conversion from a 350 hp Liquid to 310 hp NA 550 will actually make his Mooney more reliable and safer at the end of the day.  And raising the HP to 310 is just a RPM paperwork exercise (his existing prop is quite capable) - just an STC that puts paperwork form over substance.

Exactly!!! No pragmatic, for that reason I am looking for a copy of paperwork to convince them that these works were done and were aproved by the FAA

[Cruiser]

other than the propeller change the 310 HP upgrade is only allowing a max RPM change so how does the engine know that 242/310 is 78% power but 242/260 is 93% power ?

 

[Matías Equiza]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly my point. There is no precedent for an M20L which has received the STC for the IO-550 to go from 270 to 310hp. It doesn't exist. If you look at the history of his posts, before long he'll want paperwork for ceramic tiles on the exterior because the Space Shuttle had them.

clearly you did not understand what I am looking for. Thank you 

 

clearly you did not understand what I am looking for.

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:19 PM, Matías Equiza said:

clearly you did not understand what I am looking for. Thank you 

clearly you did not understand what I am looking for.

 

I think it's very clear exactly what you're trying to do - use one or more STCs without having permission to use them. That's theft. Anyone providing you the paperwork, knowing what you are going to do with it is an accomplice. 

When someone copies their STC paperwork for an IO-550 on an M20L and sends it to you - that was THEIR permission to use that STC on THEIR serial numbered airframe, not your airframe. It doesn't mater what country you live in - the STC does not allow you to pass it on to someone else with a different serial number.

On the second STC, the 310hp upgrade - that doesn't even apply to an M20L. The fact that you have put on an IO-550, without permission, on an airplane does not now give you permission to steal another STC and put it on top of the original stolen STC.

The 310hp STC is for sale - I bought a one-time use for one airframe back in 2014 for an Ovation that I had. I paid $6750 for the paperwork from Bob Minnis. Mooney later bought the STC and now sells it for $4995 through their authorized service centers - if you can get Mooney to sell you a legitimate use of that STC for an M20L I'll be surprised.

Putting all of your requests on a public internet forum amounts to admitting to theft. Even deleting the posts doesn't make it go away. since people can pull up archives and screen shots of your posts.

If you want to do it the right way and hire someone to develop an STC for the IO-550 for an M20L, or if you want to contact the heirs of Mod Works and see if you can purchase the STC, I am behind you 100%, But doing it the way you are doing it is not the right way to go about it.

[Cruiser]

Document Number : SA02624AT

Document Title : This STC converts the Mooney M20L to essentially an M20R. The STC requires minor changes to the aircraft structure and includes installation of a Continental IO-550-N16B engine (The engine is operated at the performance limits of 280 hp at 2500 rpm just like the Continental IO-550-G used on the Mooney M20R.) The STC is to be accomplished in accordance with Mod Works Master Document List, MW8800-000, Revision "B", dated April 30, 2003, or later FAA approved revision.

Document Type : Supplemental Type Certificates (STC) Published Date : 01/22/2004 Effective Date : CFR Part Reference : Part 21CFR Subpart/Appendix Reference : CFR Section Reference : Sec. 111 | Sec. 113 | Sec. 115 | Sec. 117 | Sec. 119 | Sec. 120

No Attachment to Display

[Matías Equiza]

2 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Document Number : SA02624AT

Document Title : This STC converts the Mooney M20L to essentially an M20R. The STC requires minor changes to the aircraft structure and includes installation of a Continental IO-550-N16B engine (The engine is operated at the performance limits of 280 hp at 2500 rpm just like the Continental IO-550-G used on the Mooney M20R.) The STC is to be accomplished in accordance with Mod Works Master Document List, MW8800-000, Revision "B", dated April 30, 2003, or later FAA approved revision.

Document Type : Supplemental Type Certificates (STC) Published Date : 01/22/2004 Effective Date : CFR Part Reference : Part 21CFR Subpart/Appendix Reference : CFR Section Reference : Sec. 111 | Sec. 113 | Sec. 115 | Sec. 117 | Sec. 119 | Sec. 120

No Attachment to Display

Thank you so much for information 

[Matías Equiza]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think it's very clear exactly what you're trying to do - use one or more STCs without having permission to use them. That's theft. Anyone providing you the paperwork, knowing what you are going to do with it is an accomplice. 

When someone copies their STC paperwork for an IO-550 on an M20L and sends it to you - that was THEIR permission to use that STC on THEIR serial numbered airframe, not your airframe. It doesn't mater what country you live in - the STC does not allow you to pass it on to someone else with a different serial number.

On the second STC, the 310hp upgrade - that doesn't even apply to an M20L. The fact that you have put on an IO-550, without permission, on an airplane does not now give you permission to steal another STC and put it on top of the original stolen STC.

The 310hp STC is for sale - I bought a one-time use for one airframe back in 2014 for an Ovation that I had. I paid $6850 for the paperwork from Bob Minnis. Mooney later bought the STC and now sells it for $4995 through their authorized service centers - if you can get Mooney to sell you a legitimate use of that STC for an M20L I'll be surprised.

Putting all of your requests on a public internet forum amounts to admitting to theft. Even deleting the posts doesn't make it go away. since people can pull up archives and screen shots of your posts.

If you want to do it the right way and hire someone to develop an STC for the IO-550 for an M20L, or if you want to contact the heirs of Mod Works and see if you can purchase the STC, I am behind you 100%, But doing it the way you are doing it is not the right way to go about it.

 

Sir, what nonsense are you saying? if I consult a forum it is to guide me in my search since Mod Works closed its doors, Mooney Aircraft Factory does not respond to my request, neither does LASAR... obtaining a copy of the STC is so that the Argentine aeronautical authority knows that it exists , that in the past the work was done and to develop here an ITA (TECHNICAL REPORT OF ALTERATION). Instead of wasting time saying nonsense why can't I get the contact to see where I can buy the STC? You must be the typical person who makes everything difficult, nobody steals anything here, it is a forum for consultations, advice. I recommend that you apologize to me.

[carusoam]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:08 PM, Matías Equiza said:

 

Sir, what nonsense are you saying? if I consult a forum it is to guide me in my search since Mod Works closed its doors, Mooney Aircraft Factory does not respond to my request, neither does LASAR... obtaining a copy of the STC is so that the Argentine aeronautical authority knows that it exists , that in the past the work was done and to develop here an ITA (TECHNICAL REPORT OF ALTERATION). Instead of wasting time saying nonsense why can't I get the contact to see where I can buy the STC? You must be the typical person who makes everything difficult, nobody steals anything here, it is a forum for consultations, advice. I recommend that you apologize to me.

Matías,

It looks like you are trying to make as many friends as possible….

I read Lance’s input, and I see the many points he is covering…

If you want to call it ‘nonsense’ in an open forum…   That may slow your progress….

Working with M20Ls is as challenging as it gets…

The M20L is the first Long Body….

And it is different from the second Long Body, M20M… on both sides of the firewall…

 

Trying to find somebody that has a copy of the paperwork you are seeking…

Is a giant networking exercise…

Being nice to everyone will always help! 
 

Of course… you can skip the niceties… and go directly to the FAA and look up copies of STCs…

It’s the first step on a long walk…

 

MS is on the internet… but it isn’t the internet….

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

MS is on the internet… but it isn’t the internet….

 

Waldo is back!

@Matías Equiza, you were already given the answer to the question you asked. If you had read @LANCECASPER’s post you would see that he wrote: 

On 10/31/2022 at 11:49 AM, LANCECASPER said:

Mooney later bought the STC and now sells it for $4995 through their authorized service centers

If you go to the Mooney website you can get a list of authorized service centers:

https://www.mooney.com/contact-2/
 

I see you’re from Latin America. So am I. I remember growing up my grandfather saying “you catch more files with honey than with vinegar.” I believe the same applies to interpersonal interactions on the internet.

[EricJ]

I'm not willing to assume he's doing anything wrong given that he's in an entirely different legal structure than we are.   STCs, or patents, or any Intellectual Property, has a limited jurisdiction.   Technology covered by US patents can be used for free anywhere in the world that is not covered by a patent specifically for that jurisdiction.   It doesn't matter how much someone has invested in an invention or how ferociously they defend its patent in the US, if you're not in the US you're not subject to that patent.   Have at it.   It's not theft, it's how the world works.

STCs are the same way.   If somebody is operating under their government authority that requires a demonstration of the technical data only, then so be it.    I've no idea whether that's actually the case, but I don't think it's fair to assume US regulatory requirements apply to somebody not in the US and not flying a US-registered aircraft.    If his regulatory authority doesn't require him to have permission, especially for abandoned STCs, then good for him.   It sounds to me like he's jumping over hurdles specifically to be compliant to his particular regulatory requirements.   Whether he actually is or isn't is between him and his authorities, not any of us.

 

[carusoam]

See if we can summarize this any…

1) Matias has an M20L…

2) It is housed in Argentina…

3) Tail number is registered in Argentina as well… (?)  more of an STC challenge if it is N registered…

4) Engine is currently updated to the 350hp liquid cooled Rocket engine…?

5) Owner would like to change the engine to the NA air cooled IO550 (g or n)

6) Then there is some confusion of what STC would apply…. If it were available…

7) Two MSer names are supplied above, who have reported putting IO550s in their M20Ls…

8) US STC laws are challenging for the non-lawyers to grapple with… I got to learn a lot… by buying one…

9) STCs for Ovations and Eagles are based on a technically different airframe… using the data for a different plane has a lot more work involved…

10) There is one resource that may have value…

11) Rocket engineering was involved with putting the IO550 in Mooneys…. Starting with the Missile…

12) I don’t know the history of the Liquid Rocket… but it probably or may not  have anything to do with Rocket engineering…

13) The bloodline for the Liquid Rocket… ran through Florida, involved a hurricane, a lack of insurance, and a power saw… the leader of the band there, owned many nice Mooney STCs… as the STC owner, being alive is important. Unfortunately, life does come to an end…

14) Soooooo… who owns the STC that allows putting an IO550 in an M20L?  Same guy in FL?

15) The FAA has a list of all the STCs ever approved… they can be searched…

16) there isn’t a huge history of M20Ls, so searching the list of STCs has got to be pretty short…

17) With a copy of the STC in hand… it might be really easy to follow…

Rocket Engineering does a great job of supplying all the parts and documentation to make a conversion possible…

18) The company that was in FL had many happy customers… but, I have never read their STCs…

19) One thing that would be helpful to know….   If you have a Liquid Rocket powered M20L….  What would make you want to swap a different engine in there now?

That could be a 100amu project, roughly speaking…

20) Let’s invite Another MSer that has recently researched M20L engine challenges….

@drstephensugiono

21) Contacting Rocket engineering is getting more challenging by the day…

The M20L was the start of a great line…  but, time and history has not been very kind to her…

PP summary only, not any original ideas…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Will.iam]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

See if we can summarize this any…

1) Matias has an M20L…

2) It is housed in Argentina…

3) Tail number is registered in Argentina as well… (?)  more of an STC challenge if it is N registered…

4) Engine is currently updated to the 350hp liquid cooled Rocket engine…?

5) Owner would like to change the engine to the NA air cooled IO550 (g or n)

6) Then there is some confusion of what STC would apply…. If it were available…

7) Two MSer names are supplied above, who have reported putting IO550s in their M20Ls…

8) US STC laws are challenging for the non-lawyers to grapple with… I got to learn a lot… by buying one…

9) STCs for Ovations and Eagles are based on a technically different airframe… using the data for a different plane has a lot more work involved…

10) There is one resource that may have value…

11) Rocket engineering was involved with putting the IO550 in Mooneys…. Starting with the Missile…

12) I don’t know the history of the Liquid Rocket… but it probably or may not  have anything to do with Rocket engineering…

13) The bloodline for the Liquid Rocket… ran through Florida, involved a hurricane, a lack of insurance, and a power saw… the leader of the band there, owned many nice Mooney STCs… as the STC owner, being alive is important. Unfortunately, life does come to an end…

14) Soooooo… who owns the STC that allows putting an IO550 in an M20L?  Same guy in FL?

15) The FAA has a list of all the STCs ever approved… they can be searched…

16) there isn’t a huge history of M20Ls, so searching the list of STCs has got to be pretty short…

17) With a copy of the STC in hand… it might be really easy to follow…

Rocket Engineering does a great job of supplying all the parts and documentation to make a conversion possible…

18) The company that was in FL had many happy customers… but, I have never read their STCs…

19) One thing that would be helpful to know….   If you have a Liquid Rocket powered M20L….  What would make you want to swap a different engine in there now?

That could be a 100amu project, roughly speaking…

20) Let’s invite Another MSer that has recently researched M20L engine challenges….

@drstephensugiono

21) Contacting Rocket engineering is getting more challenging by the day…

The M20L was the start of a great line…  but, time and history has not been very kind to her…

PP summary only, not any original ideas…

Best regards,

-a-

 

From what i understand continental stopped making parts for that engine. So once the used parts inventory is used up, the plane becomes a paperweight until you change engines. I passed on a M20L that was for sale here in dallas a few years ago because of lack of parts support for that engine for that very reason. It was priced very low for a reason. 

[Matías Equiza]

On 11/2/2022 at 2:01 PM, ilovecornfields said:

Waldo is back!

@Matías Equiza, you were already given the answer to the question you asked. If you had read @LANCECASPER’s post you would see that he wrote: 

If you go to the Mooney website you can get a list of authorized service centers:

https://www.mooney.com/contact-2/
 

I see you’re from Latin America. So am I. I remember growing up my grandfather saying “you catch more files with honey than with vinegar.” I believe the same applies to interpersonal interactions on the internet.

I am in Argentina, I must develop an ITA supported by original stc documents because there arent any company that sale tye stc for my serial number, for that reason I need develop an ITA.. this is Argentina. Thank you so much 

[Matías Equiza]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:55 AM, carusoam said:

Matías,

It looks like you are trying to make as many friends as possible….

I read Lance’s input, and I see the many points he is covering…

If you want to call it ‘nonsense’ in an open forum…   That may slow your progress….

Working with M20Ls is as challenging as it gets…

The M20L is the first Long Body….

And it is different from the second Long Body, M20M… on both sides of the firewall…

 

Trying to find somebody that has a copy of the paperwork you are seeking…

Is a giant networking exercise…

Being nice to everyone will always help! 
 

Of course… you can skip the niceties… and go directly to the FAA and look up copies of STCs…

It’s the first step on a long walk…

 

MS is on the internet… but it isn’t the internet….

Best regards,

-a-

Really, I am very gratefull with you, I Will. Lancecasper write me others thing by private message... He is not friendly man, but don't worry...

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Matías Equiza said:

Really, I am very gratefull with you, I Will. Lancecasper write me others thing by private message... He is not friendly man, but don't worry...

You sent the private message to me -  things got unfriendly when you told me to watch out for myself - implying a threat from you. I did mention that your English was difficult to understand. I apologize if you took offense at that. You came back with all kinds of ridiculous nonsense about the history of my name. I don't wish you any harm, but I don't ever want any dealings with you. 

[carusoam]

Seems to be a huge amount of miscommunication occurring…

MS thrives on teamwork…

Essentially, we all play on the same team…

Everybody has something of value to share…

 

Often, it is hard to see their values…    But, it IS there…

MSers speak an incredible number of different languages…

They live in several different countries and a few different continents…

When having difficulty communicating, around here… often people will write in their favorite language, and use Google translate to do the conversions…

Having your favorite flying machine down for infinite maintenance is a giant source of stress…

MS can be a giant source of relief from the unknowns of aviation….

 

MS has thousands of members supporting each other, every day… 24/7…

The more you bring to the party… the more you get in return… 

The opposite, is often true, as well…
 

Sometimes… you get to be the new guy… with little to offer… and have a lot of questions that need answers… or just one big one…

 

How I know there is miscommunication going on…

Lance has been an MSer for more than a decade…

Here, nearly every day…

Continuously offering insight on all things Mooney aviation… with an incredible knowledge about aviation supplies… parts, avionics, relays and how to modify them…. 
 

Plus, he has owned a few Mooneys over the years…

 

On the internet… you can ignore a lot of resources… and not feel bad… the internet is happy to ignore you back.

On MS… Every answer to every Mooney question is here, or held in the memories of its members…

When you have a really challenging question…  finding the MSer with the answer… is a community building experience…

MS only has several thousand active members…  you can be known by all of them…

Being known… in a good way… helps. 

Helps other MSers go out of their way to help you find the answer that you seek…

 

GA in the US is hard….

GA in the rest of the world doesn’t get any easier…

Owning a Mooney is different than owning a plane built for the masses…

Owning an M20L is really special….  There is nothing easy or accidental related to owning and operating an M20L…

 

There is only one MS….

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-