First aircraft

[duke851]

Great forum!

I am a new member and prospective Mooney owner.

 I need to find my first aircraft and have come down to a couple of choices.

1.       Late model M20J MSE – Makes by far the most financial sense

2.       Early M20R Ovation – Makes by far the most emotional sense

I only have 150hrs and am half way through my instrument rating. I have a complex endorsement and have 8 hours in a turbo Arrow IV. I talked this over with my CFI and he was of the opinion that most first aircraft should have fixed gear but he thinks the M20J would be within my ability if treated with respect. The Ovation on the other hand is just too much airplane.

I was wondering what the forum members think. This is about as confusing as picking a mate! The long body is just so sexy but boy can the short one cook! Or should I wait until I get a lot more experience before I take the plunge?

Thank you for any input

Colin

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I've got nothing wrong with you flying an Ovation if you get the appropriate training.  And a first airplane doesn't need to be fixed gear.

 

The M20R will get you an extra 15-20+ knots.  You can also get some very good things for where you live like a TKS de-ice system.  If you want reliable travel in the wintertime in IL, you will want this (and an instrument rating).

[Texan]

Many military (jet) pilots first solo in retractable turbine aircraft and have all their time in retracts, so it's all relative.

If you are realistic with yourself and your skills (and have an instructor who is sage and honest okaying the idea), and are willing to pay a little extra from insurance early on, then you should consider starting in a retract.  Just consider checklists as obligatory as breathing.

It has been said that your ability to get into trouble/lost flying is proportionate to the square of the speed; insofar as this is concerned, retract airfraft may be more dangerous, but this is not because of the retract switch.

Respect your limitations, weather, and passengers and you won't have any more trouble than the rest of us.

 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: duke851

Great forum!

I am a new member and prospective Mooney owner.

 I need to find my first aircraft and have come down to a couple of choices.

1.       Late model M20J MSE – Makes by far the most financial sense

2.       Early M20R Ovation – Makes by far the most emotional sense

I only have 150hrs and am half way through my instrument rating. I have a complex endorsement and have 8 hours in a turbo Arrow IV. I talked this over with my CFI and he was of the opinion that most first aircraft should have fixed gear but he thinks the M20J would be within my ability if treated with respect. The Ovation on the other hand is just too much airplane.

I was wondering what the forum members think. This is about as confusing as picking a mate! The long body is just so sexy but boy can the short one cook! Or should I wait until I get a lot more experience before I take the plunge?

Thank you for any input

Colin

 

[Jeff_S]

Colin, as noted by others above, there is no one right answer, and the first thing to determine when pursuing an airplane purchase is to think about your mission and what you're trying to accomplish. No one airplane will satisfy all your mission requirements, so find the one that satisfies at least 70% of them and be willing to work around the remaining 30%. Included in this mission is the general cost to keep and fly the plane as it compares to your budget and willingness to spend. Only you have all those answers, and it may take you some time to figure them out.

As to performance, it's really the same deal. I'd agree with George and others that your current experience level (e.g. current flight hours) isn't a sole determinent. But your general aptitude for flight should be a strong consideration, as should be the amount of time you expect to spend in the new airplane gaining additional experience. It may be true that military pilots get their first solo in a high-performance retractable plane...but only after they've had intenstive training for days and weeks...and let's not forget the folks who never make it to solo because they just don't seem to get it. This is where I think you do need to trust your CFI if you have a good relationship with him/her, and have a serious talk about how comfortable you're feeling in your training and how you're handling aircraft with more performance requirements.

But part of the fun is figuring all this out while you're drooling over listings in Controller and Trade-a-Plane, so enjoy the process!

[randypugh]

We all have our own bias opinion. J versa R . I have flown both. Systems are the same and Ive seen some nice complex radios and multi-function displays in J's as well as R's. Throttle, prop, mixture, gear switch, flaps, vacume system,  electricle system, and fuel system, both the same, just more horses in the R. If you can afford the R, do it.  

[Bob]

All Members:

This message board has been a great help to me when I was shopping for my first aircraft, as I settled on a Mooney. Thank you all! Without everyone’s help, I am not sure what I would currently be flying.

Colin,

As I was Mooney shopping, I tried to listen to all opinions and then question myself after I heard a negative view or article. I have determined that 90% is false and only about 10% of the negative is real. Please take a minute and place all negative views aside and just evaluate yourself and your needs, mission and funds. Should you buy a Mooney? If the answer is YES, then take the pros and cons, heard about all models, from knowledgeable Mooney owners only! You have found them, they are here!

Here is my purchase history:

I placed a contract on N231PZ on Oct 17th, 2009.

Private Pilot checkride on Oct. 29th with 57 total hours in a 152/172/Warrior, Cherokee and 5 retractable hrs in an Arrow.

Picked up N231PZ with an instructor on Nov. 4th and trained for 11.5 hrs.

Complex and High performance check-off on Nov. 5th

First Solo as a 300mile cross country, on Nov. 6

I understand all of us are different and this is what worked for me.  Please make choices that work for you, and only you.  When you buy a Mooney, if it takes 10 hrs or 75 hrs, please do what is needed for you!

Now after flying my 231 for a few months, I have made a few observations.

1) A Instructor and most people in general will shy away from the unknowns. If he has no Mooney experience, he will say "Don't Do It!" And so will non-Mooney owners. Most people without real Mooney experience will make comments based on the 90% false information they once heard.

2) Things do happen a lot faster in a Mooney, but, not too fast.

3) Speed has benefits. Most of the time, other people are told to follow you in. Also the other day departing Delta space with a traffic call, I decide to climb hard to just increase separation. Controller 15 seconds later, made a call, "Traffic is no longer an issue, thanks 231PZ".

4) Speed has a negative effect, It is no longer a joy to fly a short 30 mile leg. A 360% turn may take you many miles back to where you just were.

5) A well-equipped panel really, really reduces workload! If your workload has been reduced during the last 2 hrs, It is very simple to land with some little curve balls when you are not worn out. Such as gusts, busy airport or an unfamiliar airport, etc.

6) A Mooney is not much harder to fly than a Piper to fly, just different. You just have to get proper training to learn the differences.

7) A new student pilot may have an advantage. Everything is fresh in our minds. For example watching the over the fence, approach speed is just drilled into our heads as the Instructor judges our accuracy. Wow, now the coming in to fast, that everyone is worried about, is no longer a problem, Cool!

8) To avoid the issue of slowing down a Mooney when learning, always fly a full pattern and slow it down early. Then as you get smoother, you can come in faster and fly it as it was designed. Fly smooth first and then speed comes by itself. The controllers won't like this, because they expect you to be faster, but they just adjust as needed.

9) If you are too fast in the pattern, don't struggle to slow it down. Just make your pattern bigger. This take NO effort at all. Stresses gone!

10) The fastest way to get educated is to buy a Mooney owner lunch. Before my Mooney purchase, I had lunch with Brooks, from this board. He was a low time pilot and the chat really helped me a lot! He really helped me see the benefits, for my personal needs, of the K rather than the J that I was looking for. If you would like to grab lunch send me a PM. Maybe Brooks will join us?

Bob

[skyking]

Hi Colin: Like most of the guys here i have had the opportunity to fly most of what the taxpayer pays for and civilan A/C, and from all the advice you have recieved here i would find it difficult to correct or add anything to what has been said.

The only thing i could add is buy what you feel comfortable with. If you dont feel the plane is too high performance for you etc then you are likely on the right track. There are plenty of stories out there about the pilot that could afford anything they want and ended up hurting themselves or others.

As long as you receive all the right training then you should have no problems, and it sounds like you are doing just that. Also remember that if you get into retractables when low time you dont develop as many fixed gear habits.

I wish i bought my Mooney years ago!

 

Russ

[Kwixdraw]

Like the others I have to agree that the Mooney is doable for a serious low time pilot. I purchased my J when I had 110 hrs logged with 15 or so being in an Arrow II.  The thing you don't want to do is buy more aircraft than you can afford to fly and stay profficient in.  There have been some very high time Mooney pilots who have screwed themselves into the ground while trying to make a crummy approach to landing work out. If you are too cash strapped to pay for first class training you should step back to the model that allows you to train and fly frequently. Enjoy the search. You won't be sorry you went for a Mooney.

[duke851]

I am simply amazed by the quality of the postings, thank you everybody.

You have all given me a lot of very helpful advice to weigh. It is interesting to hear the views of actual Mooney pilots compared to the popularly held opinions, a large contrast.

I also need to get some seat time in the various models and do some serious number crunching.

I do find myself right on a price point that makes the nice M20Rs just out of reach at present but in this market who knows. Do I do long term financing and get the bird of my dreams or spend less knowing I will want to trade up at some point. It’s a big consideration knowing there is a 6.25% use tax on each purchase. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don’t part with money easily, not my fault, I am Scottish which clouds my thinking. I can say though I have never regretted buying something nice even if parting with the money is hard at the time.

As far as the flying goes, I have a great CFI who lives for GA. I know whatever decision I make he will work with me and make sure I get the training and experience needed to be safe.

Bob I would love to buy you lunch and pick your brain, I'll PM you with my contact info.

Colin

[drpep]

Colin

Jst to add to what already has been said I moved from a C172 after just under 100 hours  many years ago and purchased my first of several airplanes. It was a Mooney 20F. I did my IFR rating in the Mooney and given my check rides with other airplanes down the line the Mooney was by far and away the best platform. Since my first Mooney I have owned a few other airplanes as well as partnered in building a Glasair. I returned to the Mooney fold last year and I am happier for it. I have over 2000 hours now on a Mooney but my confidence in flying a high performance retractable is only as good as my frequency. My view is that 90 plus % of Mooney buyers are committed to do what it takes to fly competently and safely. This web site is testimony to that. In summary be committed to your inherently known talents and skills and go for what fits your aspirations tempered only by first rate preparation and a willingness to make flying a Mooney a never ending learning curve.

Philip

[carusoam]

 

Colin,

great spicy question.  I think there are many more M20Js in circulation than there are M20Rs.

My history...

[1] Trained and rented in C152s (100 hrs total)

[2] Bought M20C (400 hrs total) - insurance required 15hrs training to solo.

[3] Was looking for M20J (bigger back seat for growing children - mission change)

[4] Upgraded to M20R (Economy makes its price where M20Js used to be) - insurance required 5hrs training to solo.

Following guidelines from above authors:

You probably read aviation articles, books, magazine, website at least 1/2 hour every day (often a whole lot more).

Checklists are a way of life for you.  (Gear has always been down a the right time, kids never forget their homework or leave their lunch behind).

You have identified your mission.  You have predicted your mission 2, 5 and 10 years from now???

My methodology...

Our first plane was a test to see if the family, pilot skills and finances were aligned.  It worked out well, we moved on.  The M20R is a much bigger financial commitment.  As a family we agree that it is "worth" it.

For your comparison...

Check with Dave McGee or Jimmy Garrison at All American Aircraft in San Antonio (SAT).  They seem to have one of everything in stock for your own personal apples to apples comparison.  www.allamericanaircraft.com.  (I visited with them in December).

Use caution, if you stay too long, your mind may be set.  (They have M20Ms there also).

Be realistic about your finances.  Even though you can sleep in your plane, you may not want to every night.  (Mooneys are no different financially than other makes, and there are certainly more expensive birds out there than mooneys)

Also, you may want to check with Mitch and MooneyGirl,  I think they currently have both a short and a longbody...

- Anthony -

 

[KSMooniac]

I'm late to the party and think there is a TON of great advice and points to ponder given above. 

I would like o reinforce the need to get some seat time in both models, and plan to do as much transition training with an experienced Mooney instructor as you need right after purchase.  You could easily include some of your continuing instrument training at this time, and in fact, getting some instrument instruction in the Mooney would be a very, very wise decision.  There is more to do in a Mooney vs. a 172 or similar, and learning from a pro will ultimately be much safer and quicker than trying to figure out instrument flying in a Mooney on your own after you get the IR.

My other thoughts...better to buy your 2nd plane first as trading up has costs in terms of transaction costs, taxes, catch-up maintenance on the new bird, etc.  If you have the right attitude/mindset, then going straight to an M20R is fine provided you get the training.  The suggestion above to look at M20S models is also very good.  Even if you have to pay for higher insurance and training in year one, this will be vastly cheaper than buying a "starter" plane and trading in a year or two.

More to think about in terms of a J vs. R. vs. S...think about what kind of panel and equipment you'll ultimately want.  I'm guessing G1000-equipped Ovations are above your budget, so you'll be looking at conventional 6-pack panels with a GPS of some sort.  The later Js and early Rs typically came with King stuff including fancy autopilots & HSIs.  The King GPS is out-of-favor these days and the flight director/HSI gyros are expensive when they need attention.  In fact, the overhaul cost on those gyros is high enough that many people are adding an Aspen PFD or Garmin G500/600 in lieu of putting money into the old stuff, and I agree with that 100%.  The M20S came stripped-down to reduce the price, but today I consider that an advantage!  They typically had regular gyros and an STEC-30 autopilot (I have one and think it is great).  That system is less capable on paper than the loaded panels, but it is cheaper to own and buy, and more importantly it might make more sense if you eventually want to move up to an Aspen or G500 system since the autopilot won't require an expensive adaptor from the glass or require keeping the expensive gyro.

If I were looking today in the $200k range, it would be for an M20S with a Screamin' Eagle upgrade (to give it Ovation power/speed) and a Garmin GPS or two.  It should be less than a comparable year/time Ovation, and if you want to put a G500 in either plane then you'll end up with less total investment going for an M20S.  If you're happy with vintage 1990s tech and a panel full of things, then an early Ovation is your choice. 

Ice protection was also mentioned and in your neck of the woods that might warrant strong consideration too.  It is quite rare on a J of any vintage, and IMO doesn't make much sense anyway for a J because a J has limited climb ability to climb above any icing realistically, so having TKS on a J just buys more time to escape and not necessarily climb out of ice and continue on a trip.  I don't believe I've seen an M20S with TKS either, but I have seen a few M20Rs, and they do have a much greater ability to climb above.  If you think you'll need to reliably fly in the winter up there, then you should consider TKS.

As always, it is better to buy a plane equipped as closely to what you want instead of trying to add things yourself if you're on a budget.  Check actual useful loads of any candidate plane carefully, and run some trip plans with your desired missions to make sure they will work.  Some planes are quite heavy and that can compromise their usefulness if you're trying to fly 3-4 people + stuff.

Well, I ended up saying a lot more than I thought!  Go get some seat time, and you might consider looking at a 231 or 252 as well.  Whatever you decide, you cannot go wrong with a Mooney of any flavor!

[MooneyMitch]

We have an E model and an R model.   We were looking for a wonderful J [MSE actually] and came across the R by accident.  I would have enjoyed the MSE equally.  I cannot compare the R to the J exactly.  I can compare the E to the R and the R to my former F model [same airframe as the J].

I believe the J and the R are both terrific Mooney models.  As stated by someone in a previous post on this subject, the J and the R can be quite identical with respect to avionics, instrumentation and engine controls.  The main difference is the speed and the size of the airframe.   Of course, the 4 cylinder Lycoming IO-360 as opposed to the 6 cylinder Continental IO-550G is one difference.  The IO-550G is a very smooth running engine [as 6 cylinders are by design] compared to the 4 cyl. Lycoming.  Some may take offense at that...........none meant.

The R model is a more stable airplane than my F.  It just feels that way.   I suppose because there is more mass to the R.   The longer fuselage of the R adds more cockpit room physically and the extended windows make all feel just more roomy and open.  I think Mooney was able to create a bit more interior width on the later Mooneys [which I believe the later J's and R's have] with their molded interior panels.  

Since we all hear about Mooney landings [speed is the key, I believe], I think the J and R approach/landing speeds are very close to each other.  Difference is the longbody needs just a tad higher angle upon touch down.  Maybe a couple of degrees is all, according to an article a few years ago by MAPA's Trey Hughes.   The R has dual puck brakes, due to the added weight of the airplane.  Also, beefed up suspension dictated by the additional weight.  By the way, another excellent source on Mooney landing technique is Don Kaye [www.donkaye.com].

The J seems to travel along around 155-160kts, so I've read.  The R [at least our '94] does 178-182kts.  The IO-550G can get 12.8 GPH at 50 degrees LOP, losing about 4-5kts, otherwise 100 ROP gets you about 16 GPH.  I do not know about the J Lycoming LOP [same IO-360 Lyc. as the E though].  I do know our E model does well about 20 degrees LOP, with about 3-4kts less, and around 10 GPH at 100 ROP at 144kts.

How fun it is looking for your new airplane!  Hours upon hours of research coupled with the thrill of having your dream come true. I hope this helps and also, that we are all adding enough information for you to make your choice.  You are in the correct place to get tons of information.   What a terrific place for learning about our Mooneys. 

[rob]

Add me to the fray. I had 130 hours, all in FG aircraft (most in a Warrior) when I bought my M20C in May of 08. 10 Dual and 10 Solo later and I was flying her from Mississippi to Montana and all over creation. I had little if any problems making the transition and now have accumulated over 300 hours in the Mooney, and haven't had any troubles.  A low time pilot can most certainly fly em! As has been said, things happen faster and require planning, but otherwise, you pull back and a Mooney goes up, just like any other airplane.

 

 

[Ron McBride]

When I learned to fly, I was 17. Dad, flew and had a Comanche, and later a 310. I have many hours in those planes. But as a low time pilot, the main thing is:   Procedures...   Get a great Instructor, and practice, practice and practice more.

I have an F model, and even with all of this experience, a Mooney can and will humble you, if you do not practice with it.   Most Mooneys are flown cross country mostly.  We don't get much landing and takeoff practice as compared to a student pilot. Again, practice, practice, practice.   If you practice, a J model or an R will be great for you.

Before, you choose, as others have stated, You must define your mission, what will it be in 2 years, 5 years and even 10 years. Try to find the most and best plane that will meet your requirements.   As I found out, I have put over $40,000.00 dollars into the panel of my plane, value maybe $15,000.00.   But I have the panel I want, and will keep this plane for at least 10 to 20 years.

 

Good Luck and Enjoy

 

Ron

 

[Bob]

Quote:

We don't get much landing and takeoff practice as compared to a student pilot. Again, practice, practice, practice. 

[rob]

I also do a lot of non-standard pattern landings due to airspace. What I try to do is think of a straight-in as a pattern without the turns. I still try to compare where I am to where I would be if I was flying a full pattern - and setup the plane as I would in the equivalent space. In other words, I think of a straight in as sort of an "unwrapped" pattern. I also spend about one day every three months or so doing several full patterns (at a field nearby with a 4 light PAPI) just to refresh and reinforce the sight picture in my mind.

[Piloto]

Get the Ovation. It climbs much faster than the M20J and it is 15kts faster. By having the Ovation you do not have to think about upgrading. The baggage compartment is much bigger and the instrument panel has more room for upgrades. The only drawback for the Ovation is towing it by hand when compared to the M20J. But you can overcome this by getting a Robotow, see www.robotow.com. It works beautiful with the Ovation even in up ramps.

José

  

[TonyTDMD]

I bought my first plane, a 67 F model, when I was 25 hours into my private pilot training. Starting early in a mooney makes alot of sense, as long as your instructor knows mooneys. I did all of my IFR and alot of my private training in a mooney, and I think it made me a better pilot. Getting cross country time is tough though, because you get where you are going so fast! Sure teaches you speed and altitude management.

[duke851]

 

Thanks again to everyone for the input. My CFI is arranging some time through his connections to get familiar with some local aircraft. My gut feeling after reading all the posts is to aim for an R while being open minded about other models. I am going to take my time and savor the experience while I wait for the right aircraft at a price I can live with.

Colin.