201 with TKS

[ChristianGodin]

I am flying a 201 in Montreal, Canada (North East). I fly mainly VFR, marginal VFR and "light IFR". Since I am leaving in the North East, the icing season start early in the fall and finishes late in may. It scares my to take just to take of when the freezing level il low. I am thinking of having TKS, of course not to volontarily enter in icing condition but as a security. On on the otherside even if there is low terrain wherever I go, a turbo to stay out of cloud would be nice. I dont need to go that fast and I don't like to spend a lot on gaz - in Canada gaz is more expensive, approx. 8$/gallons at cheap places. We sees a few 201 on the market equiped with TKS and a lot of redondancies. An airplane cheap to run. My other choice (the one I stick coming back) would be a 252 or encore still cheap on gaz with more on maintnance.

I know that it is a classic question but I'd like to hear from the experience IFR flying single engine pilot if my thinking is on the notch or ridiculus.

Thank You

[Cruiser]

There are many discussions about icing this time of year. Icing is nothing to mess around with and can be very unpredictable. The weather sercive has worked on models that are getting better at recognizing the conditions in which icing is likely but still predicting when icing actually occurs is very challenging to get right.

Knowing what happens to an airplane as it accumulates ice is also valuable. Some airframes act differently than others. Some will carry a considerable amount of ice and still fly normally others not so well.

I suggest that anyone flying in areas that are likely to be exposed to possible icing should actually experience what it is like in a controlled condition. It would be very helpful to plan a training flight where you have a chance of experiencing real icing conditions but have a safe, fullproof set of options that will allow you to get out of the ice at anytime you need to IF it actually is present. The best way would be to fly on a day that has high cloud cover in the 7k to 9k AGL range with below freezing conditions in the clouds and a freezing level only slightly lower, like 6k or better. Set up your IFR flight with ATC and request a block altitude that includes both clouds and clear air. Enter the clouds that are at or below freezing. Observe the airframe and IF ice starts to accumulate you know you can descend to the lower altitude. Watch for ice to form and how it effects the handling and airspeed.

Many people talk about icing that have never been in it. Fear of something unknown can be very powerful and disabling. Knowing about ice and being prepared for it is just as important as basic flight training. If you ever inadvertantly get caught in icing conditions you should be able to react to it and safely exit the ice with a plan and knowledge of how to hand your airplane safely.

Desclaimer: I am not proposing anyone fly into known icing conditions. I am not proposing that anyone ignore the dangers of icing conditions. I am proposing that everyone should know and recognize ice conditions and the way it effects an airplane. Pilots should avoid icing conditons at all times when flying.

[ChristianGodin]

Good tips... I will do that for sure. I read that TKS is a plus but does not raised your chance of taking of less replacing experience. What about turbo to stay on top on a long trip to cross high cloud and decend in clear air?

[Steve Dawson]

_Christian,

_{If you check some of previous posts on this subject there are a few guys on here with experiance. I've been looking myself for a turbo mooney with FIKI or at least inadvertant so it can get you out of a situation. I'm afraid with my 201 even with FIKI it wouldn't climb up and above a cloud deck.}

_{Just curious, have you checked into the cost of inadvertant?}

[ChristianGodin]

Since I never own a turbo Mooney TKS equiped, no I don't realised the cost of inadvertand. I know that is probably 50 to 70% more than the 201. Also the purchase price is pretty much the same; 50 to 70% more.

My understanding of the answers that I get from Mooney Spacer is to forget flying IFR in season other than summer here in the north east. But I am not convinced. Often I take off and to be on top all the way I have to climb through a layer of 3000 feet with 2000 under to get out in case of whatever, than climbing in clear air for 12000 feet to be on top all the way and get back down VFR at the destination. Does it make sence or am I unaware of unplanned possible situation? Also with long range thanks, one can fly on top away from potential icing area in case of unplanned situation.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I think TKS would be very useful in Montreal because it will give you the ability to climb through a thin icing layer to get into a layer of clear air above. My limited experience with East Coast weather (3 years in New Jersey) tells me that a turbo would be less useful because the cloud tops in the winter are just too high - often FL280 or more. Nevertheless, it's hard to beat the additional flexibility you gain with a turbo.

[bd32322]

Since I never own a turbo Mooney TKS equiped, no I don't realised the cost of inadvertand. I know that is probably 50 to 70% more than the 201. Also the purchase price is pretty much the same; 50 to 70% more.

My understanding of the answers that I get from Mooney Spacer is to forget flying IFR in season other than summer here in the north east. But I am not convinced. Often I take off and to be on top all the way I have to climb through a layer of 3000 feet with 2000 under to get out in case of whatever, than climbing in clear air for 12000 feet to be on top all the way and get back down VFR at the destination. Does it make sence or am I unaware of unplanned possible situation? Also with long range thanks, one can fly on top away from potential icing area in case of unplanned situation.

Read "weather flying" by Robert Buck I have never been in ice but I will echo what others have said here, have plenty of options, in terms of height of cloud cover etc etc. I want to go into high clouds and experience it myself. Looking forward to the winter

[David Mazer]

The 252 with FIKI would be a better option than a 201 with FIKI. They're out there at reasonable purchase costs and should give you lots of piece of mind. I have encountered icing in my Rocket, sans TKS, a couple times (both times in August at high teens altitudes) and had no problem climbing out of it. The power to climb is very comforting.

[aviatoreb]

I am flying a 201 in Montreal, Canada (North East). I fly mainly VFR, marginal VFR and "light IFR". Since I am leaving in the North East, the icing season start early in the fall and finishes late in may. It scares my to take just to take of when the freezing level il low. I am thinking of having TKS, of course not to volontarily enter in icing condition but as a security. On on the otherside even if there is low terrain wherever I go, a turbo to stay out of cloud would be nice. I dont need to go that fast and I don't like to spend a lot on gaz - in Canada gaz is more expensive, approx. 8$/gallons at cheap places. We sees a few 201 on the market equiped with TKS and a lot of redondancies. An airplane cheap to run. My other choice (the one I stick coming back) would be a 252 or encore still cheap on gaz with more on maintnance.

I know that it is a classic question but I'd like to hear from the experience IFR flying single engine pilot if my thinking is on the notch or ridiculus.

Thank You

Hi Christian. I was making the same decisions about two years ago. I have essentially the identical weather as you as I am just 70nm southwest of you at KPTD where I base. I am quite familiar with that winter scenario of 2ft ceilings that may only be 1, 2 or 3k thick with tops at somewhere from 3 to 5. Zoom climb is a helpful way to get up through quickly btw. Prime the tks system before you launch, then climb to just below the clouds, level for a moment to build some speed then climb up through - it helps spend as little time as possible in the wintry muck.

I did consider a TKS equipped M20J as a possibility but in the end I decided that a turbo was a real must in my book anyway, as the turbo gives better hope to get away from the ice in many scenarios. My rocket is of course not fiki but just inadvertent. I am fine with that since I really don't want to fly in ice. I just want to get away from ice. Having the system gives me a much better sense of relief.

Colojo, I agree completely that we are not out climbing a FL28 system in a piston. Turbo or no, tks or no. That is not the day to launch in my book. But we do get the 2k base, smooth clouds thin layer scenario often enough - often even with no ice forecast and on those days I will launch and I run the tks anyway just in case. That can be done without a turbo but the turbo adds options.

[aviatoreb]

The 252 with FIKI would be a better option than a 201 with FIKI. They're out there at reasonable purchase costs and should give you lots of piece of mind. I have encountered icing in my Rocket, sans TKS, a couple times (both times in August at high teens altitudes) and had no problem climbing out of it. The power to climb is very comforting.

I don't think there is a 201 fiki option. I am not a big fan of fiki being that important though - I don't want to launch when I know I will get ice.

I have encountered ice in the middle of the summer in the middle teens. But on a day like that why climb when there is 80 degree weather on the ground?

[ChristianGodin]

It's nice to have....

There is a cost to "it's nice to have"; of course. That is what aviation is all about.

This is the way I am tinking. Remove all the "it's nice to have" and I stop flying.

The cost of a 252 compare to a 201 seems to be not more than 2.5 gallons an hour plus 2 to 3000$ per year in maintnance plus TBO at 1800 hours.

These are "nice to have" that I can affort; more than a brand new Garmin 500 or aspen stuff...

There is things that I will remember. Cloud top in winter goes far up; I was not experimented enough to know that. I gess that in mid season like mid fall, it is probably still in the range of a 252. Am I right?

Also this last post says that there is days that you don't take off. But there is still days with 2 to 3000 feet layers that without turbo (and TKS) one gets less options in case of miss reading the forecast. This is enough for me to make my choice.

I am trying to use the airplane for work as much as I can to justified the investment - also tax wise. I do accept some mandat at 3 to 400 miles that I would not accept otherwise. I just love to work when it involved flying a few hours during the week. I just hate when I have to drive.

Thank You all of you...

[Steve Dawson]

The 252 with FIKI would be a better option than a 201 with FIKI. They're out there at reasonable purchase costs and should give you lots of piece of mind. I have encountered icing in my Rocket, sans TKS, a couple times (both times in August at high teens altitudes) and had no problem climbing out of it. The power to climb is very comforting.

There's a few Encores with FIKI but but not many 252's that I've seen. I had a quote from CAV for FIKI on a Bravo for $48,000.00. I'm guessing the 252 would be similar.

[David Mazer]

I think you are overstating the annual cost difference. My annuals run about $3,000 total so it can't be $2,000 more than a 201. Also, while it isn't as fuel efficient, it isn't just 2.5 gph more. It is also faster. So the difference is mitigated some but not all. There are plenty of 252's with TKS already installed so you don't have to bite the $45,000 price tag. I think it adds about $15,000 to the price of a plane on resale.

I thought you could get FIKI on a 201. I know you can on a 252 but you can't on a Rocket.

[ChristianGodin]

It's only the Encore that is allowed to be FIKI. The other 252 can not be. Am I right?

[jackn]

Actually, Both the Encore and dual alternator 252s can have FIKI. The only mooney FIKI systems that CAV has are the panels with the wing cut-outs for the landing lights, therefore you would have to move the lights from the cowl to the wings on the 252 install. I decided to go non-FIKI for about $33k. the only real difference is a heated stall vane and dual pumps. With non-fiki, you actually get better coverage because the wings leading edge is fully covered. As for your other question, If my mission kept me east of the Rockys, I'd give up turbo before I'd give up my TKS.

[PAMooney]

I have a 201 with TKS. I've been happy with the system and ironically have picked up ice plenty of times with no AIRMET for icing. Flying in the cold months in WNY it is bound to happen and the system really helps with the pucker factor. One time in my old C I had to descend through an unforecasted cloud layer flying into Albany in the cold. It was not fun and it made a convincing case for TKS. It slows the airplane down, fluid is expensive, and takes time and effort to maintain, but one doesn't think or care about that when shooting an ILS at -2degC.

[PAMooney]

BTW, No FIKI available on a 201