Minimum IFR instruments, for you.

[Mcstealth]

Personal question.

If you were going to buy a plane, a plane that does fit your intended mission and not a trainer, and you have decided to train for your IFR in that plane, what would be your personal IFR equipment requirements be for said plane?

Yes I know what the FAR/AIMS say, but I want to know personally, what would you want, more than the minimum.

Sincerely

David

[M016576]

my personal minimum when I went aircraft shopping-

          one waas gps, one ILS, HSI, DME, two radios and a hand-held garmin (for emergencies).

[rbridges]

my plane is pretty well equipped with the exception of WAAS.  We use the VOR, ILS and DME a decent amount in training.  IMO, I think GPS and ILS would be highly desirable.  I also like the idea of 2 radios b/c there are so many frequencies to have handy.

[carusoam]

For personal flying, not business critical...

(1) Fuel injection to avoid carb ice.

(2) VOR/ILS capable nav.

(3) GPS, WAAS preferred.

(4) lightning detection for Weather avoidance

(5) iPad for charts and on board weather.

(6) back-up vac system or other independent method for keeping the shiney side up.

That was my direction when searching for a plane...

For business critical, add turbo and ice protection...

Best regards,

-a-

[Mcstealth]

I will add to this discussion.

Is this a wise choice, to purchase a plane for the mission and for the IFR training? Would you rather spend $xxxxx.xx on a trainer IFR equipped and not put the hours on the bird you will fly your mission with?

Personally, to me, it seems you would increase your skills in the bird you will fly the most and be a safer pilot, in that bird.

Just asking.

David

 

[201er]

I bought my well equipped Mooney with the intention of flying it, learning to fly IFR in it, and actually flying IFR in it. Has worked out great for me. It prepared me for the actual flying I was training to do.

[jlunseth]

I think good instrumentation for IFR would be a given.  I would be more concerned with the airframe and accessories.  The primary one's would be:

TKS (ice is just a matter of water and temp., and temp. is just a matter of altitude, you can run into it any time of the year, and anywhere in the country).

Dual vacuum or similar redundancy, such as elec. instruments

Dual alternator - all your instruments aren't going to be much use if the current dies

Dual batteries - same

Really good radios, and at least two of them.  Reception can get iffy anywhere if there is a Tstorm between you and the receiver.

Really good AP.  It cuts down hugely on the single pilot task load.

Really good landing lights.  Twin LEDs or similar.  Not fun to land by candle or kerosene lamp, in the fog, which is about what the old incandescent lights are like.

Already lots of good instrumentation suggestions, the one that has saved my bacon is an electronic engine monitor mounted in the pilot side panel (JPI 930).  It puts engine instrumentation into your scan, rather than strip gauges up under the glareshield and scattered all over the panel.  If something happens to the engine you see it when you can still do something about it, rather than when the engine is dead.

Panel lights that actually work and the bulbs are not burned out.

A panel mounted timer that is easy to read, and resets quickly and easily.  If you have to hold the reset button down for three seconds in IMC during an approach, in order to see zero's and start the timer running, throw that one out.

A simple elegant way of organizing and accessing plates.  The iPad and Foreflight are an exceptional combination.

I think there are some neat electronic display things that would help, SVT would be better in an emergency than being blind as a bat.  Lots of the electonic display stuff is just geek toys though.

[BorealOne]

Quote: jlunseth

I think good instrumentation for IFR would be a given.  I would be more concerned with the airframe and accessories....

[M20F]

2 NAV/COM with G/S inclusive of a WAAS GPS is what I would look for.  It is hard to beat a dual G430 with one or both with WAAS.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: M20F

2 NAV/COM with G/S inclusive of a WAAS GPS is what I would look for.  It is hard to beat a dual G430 with one or both with WAAS.

[Hank]

There are some good recommendations for you if money is no object. I don't have, want or need TKS--if ice is around, I don't fly; if it's forecast, I either go around or stay on the ground.

For minimum IFR equipment, I would consider:

• 
  
• WAAS GPS is wonderful to have! With a VOR head with glideslope, of course. And a current database . . . But not NECESSARY, although I did all of my training with one except when the CFII & DPE "failed" it sometimes.
  
• 2nd VOR, glideslope nice to have but not critical.
  
• Two com and two Nav radios for sure.
  
• Handheld radio with headset adapter and spare batteries. Sporty's has them with VOR receivers. I've had total electrical failure in flight, on approach. Keep it in the plane, within reach, and buy a second battery pack--it's easy to switch packs, hard to open them up and exchange a handful of AAs.
  
• Weather of some sort. ADSB is coming; XM is around; Stormscopes are good. Don't count on your cell phone.
  
• Approach plates that you can use/read. Paper is fine. What happens if your iPad overheats or the battery runs down because your forgot to turn off the wifi?
  
• I never fly without a sectional, preferably current but recently expired can be OK.
  
• More than one flashlight. I keep a small carabiner light clipped to my headset cord where it splits to plug into the panel, so I can always find it. I also replaced the left ashtray with an ashlight from Spruce. Then there's the flashlight(s) in the flight bag.
  
• The most important thing to have:  a back up plan. This is more than just a filed alternate. Think about where you will go, what you will do, what weather may happen and your response if it does. BEFORE you drive to the airport.
  

My only recommendation about battery-powered things is that changing batteries while in IMC may not be as much fun as people lead you to believe. Batteries run out; electrical failures happen. What will you do then?

And I've yet to see a certified plane with an iPad installed . . . much less approved for IFR navigation.

Two batteries, two alternators and FIKI TKS effectively rules out ~85% of GA single-engine planes. Are you people sure you want to fly in IMC with only one engine? with landing gear that has a possible single point of failure? without a rated copilot? without a second full set of instruments on the right panel for the copilot to use? and what about a life raft, in case you have to set down in a lake or river? My airport is on a river bank, won't take much to miss it, or land there if the engine dies on takeoff.

Most Mooneys on the market will either fit this category or be brought up to it pretty inexpensively. No, there's no cheap WAAS GPS, but pilots flew IFR for decades with only two VORs. Handheld GPS with XM weather adds greatly to situational awareness whether there's a panel-mounted, approved unit or not.

What's your budget? Buy the most plane you can with good maintenance and operational history, and the best [not necessarily most] equipment. HSI? Autopilot? PC system? Heading bug? Aspen? AHARS? 2nd AHARS? GPSS? Altitude hold? ADF and DME are pretty useless if there's an approved GPS, and are pretty much boat anchors any more.

Think about a backup vacuum system if the plane still has bacuum instruments. Turn coordinator or 2nd AI? My TC is dual powered, to switch to electrical power if vacuum goes out.

How many systems do you want to back up? How many of the back-ups need more backups? Some people have 3, 4 or 5 GPS units in their plane, and won't fly if one has a problem; some people don't have any GPS. There's no end to the money you can spend, buying more backups "just in case."

[Hank]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

I agree that WAAS GPS is the box to have in the panel today. But, I don't feel I need a pair of panel-mounted NAV / COM radios any more.  Now that they no longer have vacuum tubes in them, I mean.   Two are nice, but one plus a handheld for backup seems enough in a single-engine plane.  

Of course, I do have two transponders installed, but those DO have vacuum tubes inside.

[rob]

Its sort of funny to me how much redundancy some of you can't live without given that you only have one motor. 

My C is equipped with a 430W/SL30/Aera560/Aspen Pro1000 and an STEC-30. I have a single transponder, a UBG-16, generator w/ solid state voltage regulator, and a vacuum driven backup AI. I would be comfortable flying with less if need be, but I'm quite happy with what I have and feel that all the reasonable bases are covered and that I could survive failure of multiple systems due to the way I have outfitted my airplane.

I'm not scared of carb ice, as a previous poster mentioned, it's something you manage, not a deal breaker. And yes, I have encountered it in my Mooney. It was mostly a non-event with the exception of the first few seconds of "WTH?"

 

 

 

 

[danb35]

Quote: Hank

And I've yet to see a certified plane with an iPad installed . . . much less approved for IFR navigation.

[1964-M20E]

My plane has an IFR rated GPS, VOR/ILS with DME, and ADF

 

I’d look for minimum

NAV Com 1 - IFR GPS (VOR/ILS equiped even better)

NAV Com 2 – VOR/ILS if GPS does not do ILS (DME separate from GPS is very helpful for flying certain ILS and VOR approaches and when cross checking location with VOR stations)

HSIs are nice but not necessary

ADFs again nice but unfortunately NDB approaches are disappearing like dinosaurs.  They are quiet easy to fly.

 

I’d counter the portable Garmin with the Ifly 720 and sky radar for ADSB weather very useful in IFR flying.  It has helped me stay in VMC and avoid some pretty nasty looking storms.

 

I find even with just two GPSs on panel mounted and one yolk mounted you can spend too much time worrying about the GPSs and not fly the plane.  Of course I have a you fly it plane no autopilot.

[Hank]

Quote: danb35

I see this red herring a lot.  Who, exactly, is recommending using an iPad for IFR navigation?  Lots of people, myself included, use it as an EFB, and the FAA has approved that for a number of airline operators (we, flying part 91, need no such approval). 

[bnicolette]

I would highly recommend a 2nd attitude indicator running off a different source than the original installation and a standalone battery operated GPS if you plan on flying a lot of IMC.

[jeckford]

Quote: Hank

I see this red herring a lot.  Who, exactly, is recommending using an iPad for IFR navigation?  Lots of people, myself included, use it as an EFB, and the FAA has approved that for a number of airline operators (we, flying part 91, need no such approval). 

[Immelman]

6 pack, 2 nav/comm's, glide slope.

Portable GPS (yes, its VFR only, but electrical failures happen).

 

BUT... this is a loaded question. So much depends on your mission, the flyable weather near you (in your Mooney), and the equipment required for your typical mission. If you need to get home and it only has a GPS approach, that suddenly is much more valuable. If my home field had an ILS and I wasn't doing many trips where I was shooting LPV approaches, I don't see a big advantage in a WAAS GPS. If I am flying 'hard' IFR with lots of time in the clouds single pilot, a 2 axis autpilot, please. If I'm shooting up and down through a thin layer of coastal stratus, in the clouds for a few minutes at a time, I can hand-fly just fine thank you.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: Bnicolette

I would highly recommend a 2nd attitude indicator running off a different source than the original installation and a standalone battery operated GPS if you plan on flying a lot of IMC.

[rob]

If you get a USB charger, make sure it's capable of charging the iPod. They require more juice than the standard USB cigarette lighter plugs. I believe it's 2A instead of 1A.

 

[jlunseth]

On the subject of single points of failure, there is an argument that a single engine is not a suitable aircraft for IMC.  In light of the very signficant cost of having more than one engine, and the Nall Report statistics that indicate that apart from experimental aircraft, engine failure is a statistically tiny cause of accidents, it is a risk I can live with.  The other engine accessory systems that I spoke of in my earlier post, however, fail with greater frequency.  Vacuum pumps are good for about 500 hours give or take, not 2000 plus.  Alternators in my aircraft (231) need some kind of maintanence roughly every 18 months.  Some batteries seem to go forever, others are toast in a year.  Having experienced vacuum pump failure, alternator failure, battery failure, and the failures of a couple of other systems, fortunately none in IMC, I am convinced that redundancy in this area is very important. Statistically, the single engine issue I can live with.  Probably if I had experienced an engine failure I would feel differently, but fortunately I have not nor have the vast majority of pilots.

On the iPad, I agree the "you can't navigate with an iPad" is a red herring.  Anyone who thinks they can fly IMC with an iPad as the sole source of navigation, either wasn't listening in ground school, or is a very good candidate for Darwinian selection, probably on many issues that being the least of them.  However, the iPad is approved for such things as display of charts and graphs.  When you fly a long cross country and carry paper, you may need 6 plate books, three or four sectionals, and several IFR low enroutes, plus 5 or 6 A/FD's.  You carry them in the event of an inflight emergency, when you might need to divert and land unexpectedly.  Having been in that situation, I can tell you that the chart, plate and A/FD you will need on a moments notice, is going to be buried in a stack in the back seat, or on the floor somewhere in the dark, and you will not have the time to divert yourself from flying a misbehaving aircraft to search for what you need.  That paper works fine in a multi-pilot cockpit where one person flies and someone else looks, but is useless in single pilot.  I don't care if there is a risk the iPad will quit.  It is ten times safer as a carrier and display source for charts and plates than paper is.  You can find anything you need in ten seconds or less, including the right plate and all the elevation and frequency information necessary for landing. 

In any event, if you are in a bad situation and either paper or electronics fail you, your backup is ATC.  Failing to make the call and tell them what you need because of embarrassment, or unfounded fear of an enforcement action, or because they are a Federal bureaucracy and you hate them on principal, or any reason, also makes you a Darwinian candidate.  IMHO.

[BorealOne]

Quote: Immelman

BUT... this is a loaded question. So much depends on your mission, the flyable weather near you (in your Mooney), and the equipment required for your typical mission. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

It is all relative -- If you normally fly with 2 copilots, 4 engines and 3 of everything else what do our planes look like? A friend and 747 captain looked at my Mooney a few years ago and commented, "it looks like a single-point failure simulator."  I replied, "what do you mean, simulator?"

 

[carusoam]

Quote: rob

Its sort of funny to me how much redundancy some of you can't live without given that you only have one motor. 

My C is equipped with a 430W/SL30/Aera560/Aspen Pro1000 and an STEC-30. I have a single transponder, a UBG-16, generator w/ solid state voltage regulator, and a vacuum driven backup AI. I would be comfortable flying with less if need be, but I'm quite happy with what I have and feel that all the reasonable bases are covered and that I could survive failure of multiple systems due to the way I have outfitted my airplane.

I'm not scared of carb ice, as a previous poster mentioned, it's something you manage, not a deal breaker. And yes, I have encountered it in my Mooney. It was mostly a non-event with the exception of the first few seconds of "WTH?"