Full flap takeoff?

[jordann]

Electric flaps on my 2000 model eagle (Ovation) failed full down.

I am anticipating a full flap takoff to deliver to service center 100Nm away. 

Any advice, comments or experience on full flap takeoffs?

Thanks

 

[1964-M20E]

I do not know about the Ovation but I unintentionally did a full flap takeoff.  I hate to have to admit it but it is true.  I have a short body E and did not have any major issues except it felt like the main gear wanted to leave the ground before the nose gear.

 

I would be ready for something like this and would adjust the trim for a nose high attitude for take off.  Sounds like it will be a long 100NM with full flaps.  Just sit back and enjoy it at C172 speeds :-))

[jetdriven]

Cant you just disconnect the flap jackscrew and run the flaps up manually, then reconnect it?  Mooneys land better flaps up than they cruise with flaps down.

[rob]

Quote: jetdriven

Cant you just disconnect the flap jackscrew and run the flaps up manually, then reconnect it?  Mooneys land better flaps up than they cruise with flaps down.

[carusoam]

Consider having the mechanic drive out to see the plane...

Cleaning the various switches and connections may be good too....

-a-

[bnicolette]

My airplane did this to the pilot that ferried it to me when he stopped for fuel.  It was at some little airport but the local mechanic had it fixed within 10 minutes and charged the guy $10.  It may be something very simple and from what I remember it was just an adjustment?

Would much rather fly and land with no flaps than fly and take off with full flaps.

[jlunseth]

I would set trim nose higher than normal, either that or be prepared to trim nose up on takeoff to relieve yoke pressure.  I would also be careful not to exceed flaps extended speed.  The penalty for that is the flaps can be bent, which is costly to fix.

[Scott Aviation]

Quote: jetdriven

Cant you just disconnect the flap jackscrew and run the flaps up manually, then reconnect it?  Mooneys land better flaps up than they cruise with flaps down.

[WardHolbrook]

You've got non-functioning flight controls so the aircraft is unairworthy. This flight needs to be conducted under a ferry permit. Granted, a full flap takeoff shouldn't present any real problems, but it is technically illegal - show me the takeoff performance data. Additionally, should anything untoward happen during the flight how will you explain it to the FAA and your insurance company? Personally, I wouldn't do it.

[bnicolette]

Wouldn't the down limit switch cause this?  Where is that located?  I thought it was accessible through the belly on the right side back by the flaps?

[thinwing]

FULL FLAP TAKEOFF IN A LONG BODY...YOU WILL NEVER GET A FERRY PERMIT SIGNOFF ON THIS.THERE IS SIMPLY NO REASON TO EVEN CONSIDER IT.YOUR ONLY PRACTICAL OPTION IS TO GET A MECHANIC OUT TO THE PLANE WHERE EVER IT IS.WITH LUCK ITS JUST A DIRTY OR MISADJUSTED MICRSWITCH OR BAD GROUND...REGARDLESS IF YOU TAKEOFF WITH THAT KIND OF KNOWN FLIGHT CONTROL FAILURE YOU ARE GOING TO BE TOTALLY ON THE LINE FOR THE OUTCOME.lISTEN TO THE COMBINED KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE READING ON THIS FORUM AND DONT DO IT...KPC

[KSMooniac]

Thumb the floorboards a few times and try the flaps again.  Check/clean the microswitches with contact cleaner if that fails to get them working again.  

Do not fly in this condition!!!

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: thinwing

FULL FLAP TAKEOFF IN A LONG BODY...YOU WILL NEVER GET A FERRY PERMIT SIGNOFF ON THIS.THERE IS SIMPLY NO REASON TO EVEN CONSIDER IT.YOUR ONLY PRACTICAL OPTION IS TO GET A MECHANIC OUT TO THE PLANE WHERE EVER IT IS.WITH LUCK ITS JUST A DIRTY OR MISADJUSTED MICRSWITCH OR BAD GROUND...REGARDLESS IF YOU TAKEOFF WITH THAT KIND OF KNOWN FLIGHT CONTROL FAILURE YOU ARE GOING TO BE TOTALLY ON THE LINE FOR THE OUTCOME.lISTEN TO THE COMBINED KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE READING ON THIS FORUM AND DONT DO IT...KPC

[jetdriven]

Quote: jlunseth

I would set trim nose higher than normal, either that or be prepared to trim nose up on takeoff to relieve yoke pressure.  I would also be careful not to exceed flaps extended speed.  The penalty for that is the flaps can be bent, which is costly to fix.

[laytonl]

As others have said, this is probably a simple limit switch problem. A quick spray of silicone, WD-40 or something similar will usually solve the problem. The limit switches are on the motor under the rear most belly panel (on my 1978 M20J.) Lee

[jlunseth]

I am usually the conservative one, but please explain why flight with full flaps would be unsafe, long body or not.  It is the configuration used for slow flight, and that is certainly not illegal.  Heck you could fly 100 miles with gear down and full flaps and be legal as long as you don't exceed gear down speed and flaps extended speed.  There is nothing in my POH'S prohibiting full flaps take off or flight.  I don't like it, and don't use flaps much, but it is not illegal.  As for setting, I would set the trim indicator about an inch above takeoff, and be prepared to trim further to relieve yoke pressure.  

[jordann]

Thanks to all of you for the input.  I never cease to be amazed at the aviation brotherhood!  This cumulative knowledgable sharing keeps safety improving and cost decreasing.

Good points pro and con on the full flap takeoff.  I am not so remote or isolated that I can not try some of the easy fixes.

Second choice is to crank them up and fly to service. 

Now I am curious if full flap takeoffs in the long body are legal or prohibited?

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

[jetdriven]

Quote: jlunseth

I am usually the conservative one, but please explain why flight with full flaps would be unsafe, long body or not.  It is the configuration used for slow flight, and that is certainly not illegal.  Heck you could fly 100 miles with gear down and full flaps and be legal as long as you don't exceed gear down speed and flaps extended speed.  There is nothing in my POH'S prohibiting full flaps take off or flight.  I don't like it, and don't use flaps much, but it is not illegal.  As for setting, I would set the trim indicator about an inch above takeoff, and be prepared to trim further to relieve yoke pressure.  

[WardHolbrook]

Simple... If you want to know if it's airworthy to fly in that condition just call your friendly AI and ask him if's it's airworthy. While you're at it, ask him what it would take to get a ferry permit to fly it with the flaps full down. Let us know what he says. Better yet, call your insurance guy and ask him what he thinks of the idea. There's probably a clause in your policy about airworthiness and ferry permits. I'd read the fine print very closely before you decide to fly an airplane with inoperative secondary flight controls (flaps). Heck, why not cut to the chase, just call the maintenance guy at your local FSDO and ask him about it. If you can't conduct a proposed flight with their scrutiny then you probably ought not to be flying. They really are helpful if you let them. (Yes, I'm serious.) My point is that if you decide to fly it in this condition you've got everything hanging out. If anything were to happen with an intentional violation (Careless and wreckless to start and problably one or two others.) your insurance company might have second thoughts about extending coverage.    

[danb35]

Quote: jordann

Now I am curious if full flap takeoffs in the long body are legal or prohibited?

[jlunseth]

Sorry but that is simply wrong.  The aircraft is fully certified to conduct flight with flaps full down.  It is nowhere near flying with a piece of prop missing.  Hopefully, everyone on this board has conducted slow flight with full flaps this summer.  Full flaps is a normal flight mode, prop piece missing is definitely not.

Would also like to see the FAR provision saying flaps are a "primary flight control.". I looked around a little yesterday, saw something about the controls a pilot normally uses for roll, pitch and yaw.  Flaps are none of those nor speed brakes either.  

[jetdriven]

Flaps are a secondary flight control, as is trim.  It is certified for flight in that condition, but takeoff in that configuration is test pilot stuff. Frankly, I am tried of paying higher premiums paying for others crashes. Just in the past month we had three mooneys lose control on landing and crash on beautiful days.

 

But as suggester earlier by Ward, call the FSDO and ask them to issue a ferry permit for that, or Mooney to sign off on it.

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: jlunseth

Sorry but that is simply wrong.  The aircraft is fully certified to conduct flight with flaps full down.  It is nowhere near flying with a piece of prop missing.  Hopefully, everyone on this board has conducted slow flight with full flaps this summer.  Full flaps is a normal flight mode, prop piece missing is definitely not.

Would also like to see the FAR provision saying flaps are a "primary flight control.". I looked around a little yesterday, saw something about the controls a pilot normally uses for roll, pitch and yaw.  Flaps are none of those nor speed brakes either.  

[bd32322]

I'll throw a monkey wrench in all this ...

So what happens if you come in to land full flaps and do a go-around and refuse to change the flap setting when slow and low to the ground and only retract flaps to takeoff setting once you are accelerating and have gained some height from the ground.

The aircraft must have been certified with full flaps on a go-around. After all a landing is nothing but a preparation for a go-around. Seriously, I will be very concerned and surprised if Mooney did not test full-flaps takeoffs, touch and goes and go-arounds from the air.

I understand when someone will cry out - "well its not the same - he is knowingly taking off with full flaps whereas the other event was a go-around in a possibly emergency and quick reaction-required scenario" - but does the airplane care?

 

[bd32322]

Another oddity I found in my POH regarding flaps - Negative G limit with flaps extended is 0G !!

So once you have flaps down - you better not get any sudden updrafts !!! hmmm ...