Landing a Mooney in cross wind

[sleepingsquirrel]

HI,

 Should I be surprised by the sound of the wheels  touching the runway when landing? Something like the surprise when shooting a firearm, when done properly.

 I'm wondering if I'm blacking out for that period I used to remember (between turning final and wheels touching) and just coming around for the chirp?

Should I be concerned?

[Piloto]

Quote: Jsavage3

Is the nosewheel connected to the rudder?  In other words, with heavy rudder input for crosswind controls, does the nosewheel stay straight or does it turn in the direction that rudder is being applied?

I have an '86 J model and it seems that the nosewheel is not straight when I am jabbing at a rudder...

Nosewheel straight when nosewheel touches is a good thing...any inputs about how you ensure it is so would be appreciated.

 

[gregwatts]

Parker is correct.....Cruiser said it best.

I have landed in 35+ kt crosswinds and you have to fly the airplane all the way to the ground. Partial flaps and "whatever it takes" to land with no side load and on centerline. The term "stick and rudder" comes to mind.

[BorealOne]

I've done 26kts x-wind component using the crab-kick method in my Ovation. Cross-controlled inputs just don't 'feel right' in the long-body. Rudder authority is certainly a limitation (the Mooney is ridiculous compared to the seaplane I also fly) but a getting lined up properly to establish the centrelineline wasn't a problem. Of course, I accomplished this on a 150' wide runway, which certainly boosts the confidence...I don't know if I'd attempt the same winds on a 40' wide strip. 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: borealone

I've done 26kts x-wind component using the crab-kick method in my Ovation. Cross-controlled inputs just don't 'feel right' in the long-body. Rudder authority is certainly a limitation (the Mooney is ridiculous compared to the seaplane I also fly) but a getting lined up properly to establish the centrelineline wasn't a problem. Of course, I accomplished this on a 150' wide runway, which certainly boosts the confidence...I don't know if I'd attempt the same winds on a 40' wide strip. 

[Shadrach]

Quote: Immelman

I land it just like any other small airplane: Rudder to keep the longitudinal axis aligned with the direction of travel, and aileron to keep the flight path tracking the runway extended centerline.

Some people may get away with crab and kick, and that is fine... but I go back to my conventional gear training roots on this one. I would not crab and kick a taildragger because avoiding side-loads there is critical for safety (prevent a ground loop). With that said, I think its fine to fly final in a crab all the way down, establishing the above crosswind corrections well into the round-out phase of the landing. Just get the job done and the crosswind evaluated before the mains touch down.

The tricks start to come as wind velocity increases to the point where you run out of sufficient rudder authority as speed bleeds off in the landing flare. If this is the case you may wanto go around and try again with a reduced flap setting and slightly higher approach speed.

One other thing I will add is that the 12-knot max demo x-wind mentioned above likely has something to do with rudder authority. While I am no test pilot or aeronautical engineer, my opinion is that compared to other light single engine airplanes, the Mooney has less rudder control authority.

[Shadrach]

Quote: aviatoreb

 

My still pretty new to me Mooney M20K Rocket is surprising to me how steady it is in cross wind.   So far I have "only" landed 15kts due cross wind component.  I am really surprised how much of a non event that is compared to previous airplanes I have flown where that would be a much more hectic time.

I am surprised to hear one person here claim 35kts 90 deg component - and even surprised to hear about 26kts cross component.  There is a limit to how much you can dip your wing into the wind for a slip - especially in a low wing - eventually it will drag on the pavement before your wheels touch.  I don't want to found out what that theoretical max is by my own experimentation - and I would have guessed ~25kts - so reports of 26 and 35 show my guess wrong.

In an extreme case and emergency, I suppose you can use a mix of slip to max, then yes allow a bit of side load and also use the width of the runway if big enough to allow a bit of reduction in the side wind component.  Not for daily use.

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Shadrach

[Hank]

"The next time your at your hangar, look at your airplane from the front and get a sight picture of hom much bank angle it would take to drag a wing tip with the gear down (imagine the wing as a seesaw with one of the mains as the fulcrum). I suspect I suspect the angle is a lot more than the mental picture you have in your head."

Walk up to the wing tip, put your finger on your belly where the leading edge hits it; then walk to the wing root, and put a finger from your other hand on your leg where the leading edge hits it. That's the vertical amount.

Wingspan = 36 feet; cabin width ~ 3½ feet => wing length = 16 feet or so. Going from memory, approx. 2' higher at tip than root. That means:

bank angle = sin^-1(2/16) = 7º   before your wing is level; to touch you will have to bank an additional amount equal to the gear length, which is also about 2 feet. The gear are 9' apart, or 4½' from the centerline, leaving 13½' of wing outside the wheels. Here comes more math:

add'l bank = sin^-1(2/13½) = 8½º   So to touch a wingtip, you need 7 + 8½ = 15½ degree bank at touchdown.

I've never looked at the Art. Hor. when landing in strong crosswind, but maybe you could have a passenger check it out, or mount a video camera that would include part of the panel [Dave Morris, are you reading this?] and see how you are actually banking. Personally, I doubt this would happen.

I've done wind 50º left of the runway at 20G28 [15-21 knot crosswind component], loaded heavy on vacation with my wife; no problem other than using lots of runway, because it was my first strong crosswind, but there were 8000' available. Taxiing worried me, though, as I had to turn right for the taxiway, then taxi downwind. Saw a few other landings while tying down that were much, much worse than my own.

Like everything else related to flying, it's all about practice, practice, practice. Start with a good Mooney CFI.

[jetdriven]

If you can't land pretty comfortably in a 20 knot crosswind you should seek out a CFI, and practice until its a non-event.

 

[MARZ]

I hanger at Houston Southwest, an east west oriented runway.  Pretty much all of the landings there are cross wind.  Just like anything else, practice makes perfect. 

I've not done it myself but I've heard that if you can land a tail dragger in a cross wind you can land anything in a cross wind.....  Gonna have to try that some day.

[jetdriven]

Mike, just so hapens there is a world class taildragger instructor there at AXH, Joy Bowden. 

[MARZ]

I know her well !!  Hard to find a hole in her schedule !!  In fact she's going to be doing a spin seminar in October.  http://www.ghafi.org/download/spin_poster.pdf 

[rbridges]

Quote: maropers

I hanger at Houston Southwest, an east west oriented runway.  Pretty much all of the landings there are cross wind.  Just like anything else, practice makes perfect. 

 

ironic.  I live in middle GA.  Our field is 18/36, and winds are out of the west 90% of the time.

[DaV8or]

Quote: rbridges

[MARZ]

Quote: DaV8or

[gsengle]

I'm not sure anyone pointed out the obvious.  In a slip, there is much more drag.  This is useful if you are fast, transition to the slip earlier.  But if you have good speed control, this is drag you do not want.  Personally I transition from crab (less drag) to slip, over the fence.  Any sooner isn't necessary.  Any later and I don't have time to get nice and stabilized before I have to flare.

I don't think crab and kick has any place in a mooney.  Too much danger of side loads on the gear.  A slip is just the stabilized version of the same thing.

Do note that the slip method isn't generally practiced in big jets.  1) the engines out on the wing are a limitation, and 2) the gear is built to straighten the jet on touchdown.  Unlike our gear.  There are some awesome youtube videos showing this.

Finally, I've never seen the nose wheel linked to the rudder to be an issue.  You seem to naturally transition to steering the nosewheel at the point the nosewheel drops down.  Note - the nosewheel is still in the air as the mains touch...  right?

g

[gsengle]

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