Legal action against a Certain Facility in Florida

[FlyDave]

Quote: FlyDave

Becca, I didn't want to cut and paste your whole statement, but it was well said.      

[Sabremech]

Unless the other side is allowed to present their side, these are all stories with little or no merit. Are you all willing to believe everything you read from someone you most likely don't know? I'm not! I want to hear both sides of a discussion then you can usually find the truth in the middle. 

If you want to post the name of a shop or A&P on a public forum and discuss or air your thoughts, then have some professional courtesy and talk to them first. It may be uncomfortable, but you owe it to the rest of us, pilots and mechanics alike. The internet has the potential to destroy an A&P's career and them not even knowing how or why unlike the pilot owner who unless they fly for a living doesn't have the same consequences! Think about it! 

 

[Becca]

Quote: Sabremech

Unless the other side is allowed to present their side, these are all stories with little or no merit. Are you all willing to believe everything you read from someone you most likely don't know? I'm not! I want to hear both sides of a discussion then you can usually find the truth in the middle. 

If you want to post the name of a shop or A&P on a public forum and discuss or air your thoughts, then have some professional courtesy and talk to them first. It may be uncomfortable, but you owe it to the rest of us, pilots and mechanics alike. The internet has the potential to destroy an A&P's career and them not even knowing how or why unlike the pilot owner who unless they fly for a living doesn't have the same consequences! Think about it! 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Sabremech

Unless the other side is allowed to present their side, these are all stories with little or no merit. Are you all willing to believe everything you read from someone you most likely don't know? I'm not! I want to hear both sides of a discussion then you can usually find the truth in the middle. 

If you want to post the name of a shop or A&P on a public forum and discuss or air your thoughts, then have some professional courtesy and talk to them first. It may be uncomfortable, but you owe it to the rest of us, pilots and mechanics alike. The internet has the potential to destroy an A&P's career and them not even knowing how or why unlike the pilot owner who unless they fly for a living doesn't have the same consequences! Think about it! 

 

[231flyer]

I recognize David's point of view as a professional mechanic.  However, from an owners and pilots POV, we are trying to help each other maintain a passion thats under attack from rising costs and dwindling numbers (pilots and suppliers). I for one am very interested in hearing Byron's episode with his incompetent and dishonest mechanic. Frankly I dont care what the mechanic's side of the story was in this case.  It is never acceptable to gloss over such obvious discrepencies and jeopardize pilots' lives. Most pilots/owners are smart enough to discern an isolated incidence from a pattern as Eric notes. I will never consider using that particular mechanic, if stuck in the Houston area I will be sure to call Byron first. Similarly if anyone is stuck in the DFW area, give me a buzz.

Btw many professionals have their livelyhoods hinge on consumer complaints, this is not unique to A&Ps.  Lawyers and Doctors are licensed by the state Bar Association and State Medical Boards respectively.  Client/Patient complaints are reported on the respective websites and can absolutely sink a career. Professional Engineers similarly have their own associations and businesses are always at the mercy of their customers and the numerous websites/BBB etc. discussed here.

Maybe a poll will help us decide if we should launch a forum for MX issues.   

[SkunaMooner]

Beware that once you get the lawyers involved the issue will take on a life of it's own.

Unless there is "damage" under law as a direct result of the servicing companies actions, I wouldn't even consider getting into a legal stoush. Even if you win, Legal fees will absorb the costs.

I'm sad to hear that A&Ps over in the US are similar to the one's here in Australia. They sem to charge a lot for stamping books and do little actual work. On top of that the most dangerous flight is the one from the annual. I had a massive top end oil leak and lost boilts from the rocker covers right out of an annual! They forget to re-connect the landing light, leave bags of bolts hanging off the wings, leave access panels on the wet grass!

Make sure you have a written agreement for EVERY bit of work they do.

I've had attempted massive overcharges for extra work at nearly every annual. Unless you agree to the work, you DON"T have to pay for it. (that's why car dealers have you sign a work order over here when you drop your car off for service).

If a workshop attempts to charge for extra work, get a second opinion.

I had one shop state that the aileron  rod ends had too much play and needed replacement. The tech stated that "you don't want to get flutter" and tried to add an emotional requirement to the work. Thanks to forum members I found out that the play in the ailerons was average. And there's only been ONE Mooney that broke up in flight due to flutter (and that was from the elevator in a horrendously fast descent). BTW the shop didn't even have their own rigging board for the ailerons either!

You don't have to pay for unauthorised work and the shop cannot keep your aircraft either.

I ALWAYS make sure the quote is in writing and all  communication is in writing regarding your dispute. (Emails are legally valide here)  and if the shop gets legal advice on the issue the advice will come back that they had to get authorisation.

I'm ALWAYS ready for the dud now.

Negative feedback is so hard to give, yet so valuable to a business.

Because the safety issues involving aircraft are so emotive, some unscrupulous persons think they can oversharge for work and overwork the aircraft. I have lost count of the number of shops that want to tear the interior out EVERY YEAR for the cage inspection.

And I just got off the phone with a mate who just found out the automotive shop that sold him his fuel pump took the regulator that was asupposed to be included out of the kit 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Sabremech

Unless the other side is allowed to present their side, these are all stories with little or no merit. Are you all willing to believe everything you read from someone you most likely don't know? I'm not! I want to hear both sides of a discussion then you can usually find the truth in the middle. 

If you want to post the name of a shop or A&P on a public forum and discuss or air your thoughts, then have some professional courtesy and talk to them first. It may be uncomfortable, but you owe it to the rest of us, pilots and mechanics alike. The internet has the potential to destroy an A&P's career and them not even knowing how or why unlike the pilot owner who unless they fly for a living doesn't have the same consequences! Think about it! 

 

[jetdriven]

I am still waiting for proof of an owner sticking it to the shop for 20K.  There are dozens or hundreds of the opposite.

Face it, the owner has zero recourse. The shop can do what they want if they choose, and if you decide not to pay, the can lock up your plane and you will not get it back until they let you. It hapened to us the first time out. Go to the police, they will tell you its a civil matter.  Go ahead. Sue. After ten grand, you may or may not get a reduced bill. 

OK, so, say you paid your bill and 2 hours into the first flight the oil temperature is in the red and the oil pressure is falling. You land at another airport where a well-known (reputable) MSC diagnoses the top end shot and the oil filter full of metal. Now, WTF, you just paid the prebuy shop (who said it was a sweet plane) 10K to put 2 cylinders on and change the oil cooler. Nobody checked the injectors, two of them are half clogged and too lean.  I read that story here. Did the first shop reimburse the owner?

or 640 hours after a major overhaul the cylinder separates and trashes the case.  Did the owner get anything back?

Or the mechanic who removed a cylinder to inspect for corrosion and reinstalls it without mentioning the heavy rust pitting?

Or the owner who had a prebuy done by an MSC who caught the missing TSO tags on one seatbelt but missed the emergency tail AD and the AD recalling the ECi cylinders?  6 grand for that.  Whoops! Sorry about that.. What tail AD?

How about the Continental IO-520C engine majored with the wrong size crank bearings and overheats, uses oil, the whole first 75 hours, then makes metal and goes bad. 13 months.  Our shop (a good one) took the enigne apart and took the P/Ns off the bearings and compared them to the crank.  Mismatched. Wrong size from the OH shop.  Go pound sand, buddy.  Same owner, overhauled the prop and 10 hours later all blades are leaking and the paint is peeling. Warranty consideration, but they continued the 6 month warranty from the original build. The same shop quoted me 600$ for a governor overhaul and NO warranty.

How about a new tachometer where the needle gets loose and gyrates wildly before the first takeoff. Ship it back, reintstall, now the tach reads 100 RPM too low. Manufacturer says "no refunds". 6 hours labor and a 2 month ordeal.

OK end rant now, but the possibilities are endless. The outcome is the same. Owner pays.

[ADopo]

 

 

[ADopo]

del

[ADopo]

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[ADopo]

Crap! What's wrong with my fingers!

[Sabremech]

You know what you're doing here? Creating an A&P shortage. These types of threads turn mechanics off from wanting to work on small airplanes! Look at what you've all been posting, why would anyone want to become an A&P let alone work in the small GA field?

 

[231flyer]

" The FAA claims ~180,000 active A&P licenses.  Assuming half work in commercial aviation 90,000 A&Ps are focused on the GA space.  With an active fleet of ~400,000 a/c in the US thats 4.44 a/c per mechanic. According to my mechanic (single operator shop now) he tries to have ~50 a/c in his stable. That gives him an average of one annual per week and standard break/fix during the interim.  He runs the shop with his wife so grossing ~$300k per year works for him but obviously he is not rolling in it.  This clearly illustrates a supply/demand imbalance in favor of the owners (local supply may vary). We have 8 shops on our field alone, 70+ shops in the DFW area."

Sorry David but the numbers don't bear that out......lots of A&Ps out there. Maybe a shortage of really good ones.  Thats the issue isn't it,  a few bad mechanics are giving the others a bad name.

[Sabremech]

231Flyer,

That's OK, as I'm one of the A&P's who will not do annuals on small GA aircraft. There's not enough money in it for the frustration. 

[Becca]

Quote: Sabremech

You know what you're doing here? Creating an A&P shortage. These types of threads turn mechanics off from wanting to work on small airplanes! Look at what you've all been posting, why would anyone want to become an A&P let alone work in the small GA field?

 

[jetdriven]

del

[David Mazer]

Having dealt with Coy, once and never again, and having given him multiple opportunities to make things right, I have no problem telling other pilots to stay away from him at every opportunity.  Coy has threatened me with a slander lawsuit and I told him to bring it on because the counter suit was pretty significant and he went away quickly enough.  The damage to my plane could have been life-threatening and he knew he was responsible.

For those out there that take offense at outing a dishonest GA service that creates life-threatening problems, I think your priorities are wrong.  These charlatans need to be prevented from damaging others.  Period.

On the flip side, when asked about other services I have offered positive and neutral reviews where I felt warranted.  More positive than neutral I'm happy to have experienced. I believe that these reviews are one of the main benefits of this forum and I am glad to be able to find the reviews when I need them.

[jetdriven]

This also extends to FBO's. We were treated like total crap at Boca Aviation (I emailed the GM and put, quote "Your Quality Statement says " A dedicated team of professionals committed to exceeding customer expectations 100% of the time"  Perhaps you should evaluate that.  It sounds pretty hollow.  It is rare I am made fun of behind the desk in public. In fact, the first time in 15 years and 5000 hours of small airplane flying.)

They got in touch really quick and bent over backward to get to the root of th problem.  So, I wouldnt hesitate to go back. We just had some crappy line employees on duty that day.

I also wouldn't buy a quart of fuel if I had to fly to the Bahamas and only had two gallons left, it was ~8$.  Today it is $8.59 while nearby FPR is only $6.19.  We were sure to leave reviews about that on Airnav. (Also the fair price in Key West, and the awesome <5$ fuel in DeFuniak Springs).   Perhaps enough reviews like this, we can get noticed.

[231flyer]

So how do we solve the problem.  We want to encourage and reward good mechanics while at the same time prevent owners from being taken by shoddy/dishonest A&Ps. I absolutely will grant a fair share of owners are cheapskates etc.  As discussed here the recourse against owners is straight forward and quite effective.  How can we help owners deal with the shoddy mechanic? I really do want to reward the good ones so they prosper and bring on the next generation of interns.

I do fear for the health of GA.  Our numbers are dwindling fast, you all should read the latest FAA report.  Pilots are at an all time low, many leaving the active ranks while new pilot starts are a fraction of the past.  The airframe manufacturers are all in, out, or near bankruptcy. GA airframe sales last year were 13% of the 1980 high point. We have to figure out a better way to work together else we all lose!

David, I do hope you have not infered this discussion as bashing all mechanics.  As stated before, in the 20 years of ownership I have run into just 3 bad ones and numerous great mechanics.

[John Pleisse]

Some sort of Angie's List for shops is of little consequence and counter productive. In this thread alone, the curd has fallen to the bottom and cream has risen to the top. Don't forget, there is a great collaboration of owners and A&P's on this site that helps everyone. Want to call out a bad shop, go ahead....put your money where your mouth is and author a thread (as was done here). Create a separate apporatus for whining, everyone loses. You would be replicating an already good resource. My $.02 .

[PTK]

May I suggest the following: If someone is happy with a service center, a mechanic or an FBO, post GOOD experiences and POSITIVE remarks. Recommend them highly and sign your remarks with a name and tail number. On the other hand, if the experience is not worthy of a positive response, simply refrain from posting anything at all.

After a period of time of doing this the good and worthy shops will accumulate all the good recommendations and rise to the top.

Just a suggestion.

[Bennett]

In my several decades of flying, even the best shops I took my aircraft to ocassionally made errors, but these facilities always took resonsibility for their actions, and fixed the problem without additional charge to me. They usually occured directly after an annual inspection, and so "proving" that the facility made a mistake was never a problem. Fortunately none of these errors caused an accident, but a few could have, were I not as wary as I am after an annual. In my experience, Mooney specialty facilities such as LASAR, Dougash, and Tim's old Mod Works were / are always worth the money charged.  Bad experiences: a couple of instances where I just needed a repair NOW while on a trip, and so I couldn't be quite as selective. Without knowing anyone on the field, it was always a "crap shoot", and sometimes this resulted in far less than great performances, possibly because of their unfamiliarity with Mooneys. I think that all the Mooney specialist shops I have had dealings with over the twenty years plus that I've owned Mooneys have been honest, at least with me, and that includes the "shop in Florida".  Because of my experiences while on trips far from my home base, I would like to see a sort of "great service" shop listing. I think we all know some of the very best Mooney shops, but there are other shops who know and well service Mooneys that are not as well known. Bad rapping shops on a listing, is, in my opinion, not a great idea, as it could be a one off situation, a misunderstanding, or a personality clash.  On the other hand, a positive Mooney related listing would be really helpful. For example, LASAR, Dougash, Don Maxwell all have received favorable comments on this forum, as have some of the fuel tank shops, aircraft painters such as ArtCraft, uphostery shops such as Aviation Designs, avionic shops, etc.  For example, when I had my panel completely redone, I had no idea where to take N335BB for the quality of work I wanted. Just getting bids wasn't the answer for me, and after asking around at my home base in San Carlos, CA, I heard a very positive recommendation for Executive Aircraft Maintenance in Scottsdale, AZ.  This is a long way from KSQL, but I decided to have the work done there because of the glowing recommendation I received from a fellow (now former) Mooney owner.  I have never worked with anyone more honest, decent, and knowledgeable than Bill Forbes, the EAM Avionics Manager.  He held to his price estimate, and the workmanship was beyond my hopes. They worked with me to solve a Garmin problem, and they did not charge me for the many hours it took to rectify Garmin's software glitch. I would be happy to post my experiences with LASAR, ArtCraft, Tim at Aircraft Designs, or Executive Aircraft Maintenance, or answer any PMs or emails about these facilities. If others did the same we could have ain informal, but useful, listing of the best Mooney shops, and wouldn't that be useful when traveling, and somthing breaks.

[David Mazer]

Quote: Bennett

I think that all the Mooney specialist shops I have had dealings with over the twenty years plus that I've owned Mooneys have been honest, at least with me, and that includes the "shop in Florida".

 

If you did have an honest experience with Coy, you would be the first I have ever met and I have been approached by many customers and vendors alike that feel very different about him and his company.

[Bennett]

Mazerbase,

I sent you a PM outlining my experiences with Coy, Mod Squad, Mod Works