The life of an airframe and when to stop investing into it

[Rick Junkin]

20 hours ago, hazek said:

I don't know how to think about this. Any input?

I'll speak only for myself, but I think others also think about it this way. This may get a little sappy. And there will be a bit of Mooney blasphemy.

Owning, maintaining and operating my airplane isn't about being practical or sensible.

It's about being passionate about aviation. It's about the freedom piloting my own aircraft affords. It's about the satisfaction I get from keeping her in the best condition possible. It's about realizing a life long dream of owning this particular airplane model and modernizing her to better-than-new condition and capability, and treating her like a friend. Rolling with the punches as things like ADs, new fuels and the general population lay challenges in front of us and finding ways to overcome them, sometimes at great financial expense. Because I love flying, and I love what I've been able to make of this airplane. I've conceded that I'm going to need to do some work on the airplane to adjust for any new unleaded fuel and it's going to be expensive. Yup, ok, I'm in. 

Now that's not to say this is the last airplane I'll own, even though I treat it as if it is. I'm getting older, and at some point practicality and sensibility will probably catch up with me and I'll need to change my ride to something with fixed gear to be able to keep flying. I've got my eye on the LSA market and have a few candidates in mind for when that time comes. After all, speed isn't everything (that's the blasphemy). But until then, "The Beast" will get my best efforts to maintain and preserve her airworthiness to my own high standards. Some of that will not be practical or sensible. But I'll do it anyway.

So @hazek, all this to say yes, perform your due diligence to ensure the airplane is mechanically sound and then pour everything you have into her to make her exactly what you want. If she isn't capable of being that, then it's time to move on to a better candidate.

Sensibility and practicality have their place. But sometimes in the course of airplane ownership they pale to passion.

Cheers,
Junkman

[Rick Junkin]

[hazek]

2 hours ago, Hector said:

If your plane has good bones (airframe and powerplant)

Well that's part of my concern basically. I said this:

11 hours ago, hazek said:

I was thinking of actually going for interior/paint first that could uncover any hidden issues. And only then avionics if it turns out all is well. Is this silly?

But no one commented. How can I know the bones are good? When and how can I check this. My annual is coming up in a few weeks. It'll be my first that I will be involved directly and stay at the shop for the whole time. Would this be a good time to check for any hidden corrosion?

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, hazek said:

Well that's part of my concern basically. I said this:

But no one commented. How can I know the bones are good? When and how can I check this. My annual is coming up in a few weeks. It'll be my first that I will be involved directly and stay at the shop for the whole time. Would this be a good time to check for any hidden corrosion?

Absolutely.   Wing spars seem especially susceptible, and send a borescope down between the interior and the pilot's side window to check the condition of the steel tubing (plus anywhere else that's handy).   If you're not seeing any paint get pushed up in spots by surface corrosion, and the inspection goes well, then you're probably in good shape.   If the controls don't have a lot of slop and the rod ends don't have a lot of play, that's a good sign, too.   If things have been kept lubricated it can minimize the likelihood of future failures.

If your engine is running well, not using excessive oil, compressions are good, operating temperatures are good, then it's probably good to go for a while, too.

There are enough piston-engine airplanes in Europe that I'd be surprised if avgas got outright banned for a long time.   It might get more expensive, but it's doing that everywhere.

[AndreiC]

I remember some of your earlier posts; my impression (correct me if I’m wrong) is that you are quite new to both flying and to owning an airplane. (Two very different aspects of aviation.)

If this is correct, here is what I would recommend. Find yourself an A&P that you trust, and pay them for a serious inspection of the plane. Paint flaking off and fiberglass cracking may look bad from the perspective of owning a car that is <5 years old, but for a GA plane it means nothing in terms of airworthiness. Hidden corrosion may exist, but a paint job will not find it; a good A&P will. Then find yourself a good instructor and fly with them a fair amount. Once you are completely comfortable with the plane, fly the heck out of it, VFR, as it is. You don’t need glass for that, and if the 1500 hour engine is strong there is no good reason to ground the plane for who knows how long (and risk infant mortality) to do an overhaul. 

After flying the plane for 2-300 hours you’ll know a whole lot better what your ideal plane looks like. Everyone wants a beautiful plane, but planes are made for flying not for fixing up; for sure it is important to keep up with airworthiness issues, and to upgrade things as needed. But you don’t absolutely need a spic and span hangar queen that you fly once in a blue moon. If you have an airworthy Bravo you are well ahead of the curve already, a frequently flown plane is the best plane. 

[Paul Thomas]

You'd take the a similar loss on an SR-22 as a Mooney of the same value if 100LL is banned.

[donkaye, MCFI]

BTW, while my plane has been hangared all its life, the wings do flex somewhat and paint comes off of the rivets.  Also, my top cowling showed some cracking.  I finally took my plane to Art-craft in Santa Maria, California and had them repaint the wings and horizontal stabilizer.  They were very reasonable at the time.  I just looked and it was 15 years ago in 2010.  That means the plane was 19 years old at the time.  How time flys!   I'm starting to see a little cracking in the cowling again, but nowhere near as bad as 15 years ago.  With the turbocharged engine the cowling gets hot.  I just touchup the rivets now.  I'll wait on the cowling for now.  I like the paint scheme of the early 90s.  With the long lines, it makes the plane look bigger than the more modern paint schemes.

[M20F]

On 6/30/2025 at 6:16 PM, hazek said:

I don't know how to think about this. Any input?

You need to share more about your mission.  How many hours per year, average trip length, heavy IFR/all VFR.  

I find many people over buy for their mission.  I want to fly VFR every weekend @50 miles to eat breakfast, I should get an Acclaim S.  I never fly IFR but I want to put in a $200K EFIS system.  
 

I am not saying this is the case for you, but without mission details how can anyone give sound advice?

[IvanP]

4 hours ago, hazek said:

My annual is coming up in a few weeks. It'll be my first that I will be involved directly and stay at the shop for the whole time. Would this be a good time to check for any hidden corrosion?

Being involved in annual inspection is a valuable learning experience. I am lucky to have a mechanic who is willing to share his knowledge with me and educate me on the fine points of Mooneys and the TLS engine. KNowing your plane is definitely a plus. Enjoy flying the plane and do not stress too much about its age. 

[dkkim73]

14 hours ago, GeeBee said:

G1000NXi upgrade came out I would buy it in a New York second. Because even with all that I am in it for waaaaay cheaper than new with the same performance. With that Bravo, you can blow the doors off that Cirrus, why would you not want to upgrade it for 1/10th the cost of new?

That is the best argument I've heard for an NXi upgrade. Buy years of support regardless of the effective usability gain and how big or small it is. 

[dkkim73]

3 hours ago, M20F said:

I want to fly VFR every weekend @50 miles to eat breakfast, I should get an Acclaim S.

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

[Fritz1]

Corrosion is the only real show stopper, at annual take off the innermost, most rearward wing inspection panel, take borescope and look at stub spar, this is the most sensitive spot, I fog that compartment with anti corrosion oil at every annual, my airplane has TKS, the other neuralgic corrosion spot is on the roll cage tubes under the windows, water gets in through dead window sealant, take cabin side panels off and inspect, when side panels are off might as well replace all the dead glass wool insulation with soundex, if you find that you are particular to Mooneys, newer Bravos and Ovations with less than mid time engine and good avionics typically go for about $300k, most of the work that lies ahead of you is then done already, however in the olden days when some people built their own radios, the moniker was: no radio plays as well as the one you built yourself

[icurnmedic]

Already have the deposit placed and am looking at roughly a $96k install in my 1982 Bonanza. 1991 seems like a new plane to me.

[Fix]

On 7/1/2025 at 12:16 AM, hazek said:

I'm wrestling with the question of how much to invest in my plane. A 1991 Bravo, still with the six pack, KFC150, original paint and interior. The only two modern avionics are the GTN650 and the EDM830. The engine has about a good third of its life left probably, hopefully.

Good question...

But it starts what you paid for your aircraft.
Then depends on what status it is in, Condition, Engine hours etc.
Then you have the Market price for similar aircrafts.

Then you get an idea if it's worth "investing" or just sell it as it is and buy another better from start.

So if you have a keeper and you have it in the right price, then it's worth investing in it.

 

On 7/1/2025 at 12:16 AM, hazek said:

Another worry is the end of AVGAS in Europe. We had two smaller Belgian airfields forbidding all AVGAS aircraft this year which was a major surprise and shock to everyone. The courts upheld it citing some European environmental initiative that hasn't even been implemented yet - apparently will be in 7 years. Should I be looking at diesel aircraft? I'd hate to fly a DA40 after flying my plane, and I can't afford a DA50 or DA42, let alone a turbo prop. Is there even anything else certified and not AVGAS dependent?

We will have Avgas 100LL until 2027 in Europe, and then most likely "EU" will follow that "USA" is doing.
If there ain't any 100LL replacement then USA will most likley continue to supply 100LL and then EU will follow.

There is NO BAN in EU for 100LL or use of TEL in Avgas 100LL and also no BAN for concentrated TEL.
We now have permission to use TEL, and sure maybe Shell etc won't get permission to handle concentrated TEL in future.
Then we will import 100LL from USA instead like we used to do before.
Because there is no permission needed to handle 100LL or TEL in low concentrations.

Also seen that there is only one supplier for TEL in the world.
That might also not be true, there a supplier in ASIA too according to Shell in the application to ECHA.

 

 

On 7/1/2025 at 12:16 AM, hazek said:

If I sold it and bought an SR22T

What does that help, it also burns 100LL

 99% of all piston aircraft's with more than 200HP burns 100LL

 

[67 m20F chump]

The Cirrus is a plastic clown plane.  Not every clown has a Cirrus but every clown at the airport does.  Property tax is the reason I have a 67’ F.  The property tax I was being charged for my 77’ B55 drove me to sell it.  My vote is for the nicest well kept old airframe you can find.  IE the evil you know is better than the one you don’t.