Crosswind component in short bodies

[AndreiC]

I am curious what various people's personal limits are for crosswind component in a short body. Mine is a 1970 E.

Reason I am asking is that yesterday I landed in what was reported (at a nearby airport, mine does not report) as 22G28 wind straight across the runway (3000 feet, good asphalt), and it was quite sporty, to say the least. I landed safely, but I wonder if perhaps I should have somewhat lower limits for myself.

Honestly it was not so much the continuous crosswind, but the fact that while in a full slip at about 90 MIAS, stronger gusts caused me to sink quite abruptly and required rather big pitch control changes. (I increased the landing speed from my normal 80 MIAS to 90 MIAS to account for the gusts, and I am glad I did.)

[Ragsf15e]

40 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

I am curious what various people's personal limits are for crosswind component in a short body. Mine is a 1970 E.

Reason I am asking is that yesterday I landed in what was reported (at a nearby airport, mine does not report) as 22G28 wind straight across the runway (3000 feet, good asphalt), and it was quite sporty, to say the least. I landed safely, but I wonder if perhaps I should have somewhat lower limits for myself.

Honestly it was not so much the continuous crosswind, but the fact that while in a full crab at about 90 MIAS, stronger gusts caused me to sink quite abruptly and required rather big pitch control changes. (I increased the landing speed from my normal 80 MIAS to 90 MIAS to account for the gusts, and I am glad I did.)

@N201MKTurbo will be along shortly to tell you about landing across the runway in a 40 mile an hour crosswind. I don’t doubt him, but taxiing is gonna be real tough after that. Personally, I use about 20. 15 seems pretty easy, but around 20 it starts to get sporty. Gustiness adds to the sportiness.  Part of it is dependent on how wide the runway is too. Theoretically, you should land with no sideways motion, but with that much cross wind, it’s nice to have a buffer. Also, you have to realize that it’s going to try to weathervane and/or drift once it’s on the ground. And you may need to reverse the rudder, and you have to consider how much nose wheel steering (rudder) you have in when you’re landing (and take it out in time).

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

@N201MKTurbo will be along shortly to tell you about landing across the runway in a 40 mile an hour crosswind. I don’t doubt him, but taxiing is gonna be real tough after that. Personally, I use about 20. 15 seems pretty easy, but around 20 it starts to get sporty. Gustiness adds to the sportiness.  Part of it is dependent on how wide the runway is too. Theoretically, you should land with no sideways motion, but with that much cross wind, it’s nice to have a buffer. Also, you have to realize that it’s going to try to weathervane and/or drift once it’s on the ground. And you may need to reverse the rudder, and you have to consider how much nose wheel steering (rudder) you have in when you’re landing (and take it out in time).

Ok, you called me out. It was back in the 80s when I was flying about 4 hours every day. The landing was in Laramie WY in the winter. The east west runway was closed. The wind was closer to 60 KTS right down the closed runway. I was listening to a Beech 99 trying to take off. They had aborted 3 attempts. I landed and must have shamed them because they made the next takeoff. 
 

With that much wind your ground speed is very low on touchdown, practically stopped. I lined up on a 45 to the runway, touched down on the edge of the runway and was stopped by the centerline. 
 

Taxiing in was very dicey. It took me 10 minutes to taxi in. When I got to the tie down the plane would start to move backwards if I throttled back. I called the FBO and they came out and tied me down with the engine running to hold position.

[AndreiC]

OK, I understand now what you guys are talking about. Rich must of course have landed using the crabbing method. I generally use the slip method, never tried to land crabbing (and straightening the steering wheel right after touch down). I should try it some time, but for now my question is how much crosswind can a short body tolerate for the slipping method (where the rudder authority is the limiting factor)?

 

[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

OK, I understand now what you guys are talking about. Rich must of course have landed using the crabbing method. I generally use the slip method, never tried to land crabbing (and straightening the steering wheel right after touch down). I should try it some time, but for now my question is how much crosswind can a short body tolerate for the slipping method (where the rudder authority is the limiting factor)?

 

There’s not a drift method and a crab method to the actual landing.  In either case, you kill sideways drift with bank and align the wheels with your motion which is typically straight down the runway on centerline at touchdown.  Rich landed on an angle across the runway (picture a pretend line pointing 45 degrees across the runway) so he turned part of the crosswind into a headwind.  
No matter if you crab or slip down final, you’ll land with the wing down into the wind (only enough to kill sideways drift) and opposite rudder to hold the nose straight to your line of motion (centerline for most, pretend centerline for Rich).  The crab vs slip debate is more about final.  On landing, youll be in a slip.  You should land in this forward slip with no sideways drift and the wheels pointing straight in your line of motion.  You will land on the upwind wheel first.  You will have opposite rudder in (youre in a slip after all), so you will need to kill that before setting down the nose since it happens to be connected to the nw steering. When you set down the downwind wheel and the nosewheel, you lose the drift compensation and you can start to weathervane as you slow, so you need to be careful even after landing.

[Hank]

I landed at KRAP with just over 100 hours in my 1970 C, winds were in the high teens gusting into the mid 20s, 50° left of the runway.

Just recently, I landed 18, winds were 260@8G14, Variable 240-320. Fun times!

Sometimes it's just mental. When I was first dabbling in IFR training, i was out with a CFII who arrived an hour late, and we got home as the storm was approaching. Tried twice to land on 26 (3000 x 75) over the trees and couldn't hold centerline due to strong gusty wind from the left. So we hopped 4nm across the river to use the crosswind runway at the local Class D, and made it. Eased the plane into a community hangar for the night, pushing the tail between two Cessnas.

Anyway, that runway was wider, and I found out when I looked closely flying out that it was also 26 and 3000' long. But it was wide, wide, wide with an open approach. Didn't notice going in, the CFII did the radio work and I just concentrated on flying the plane.

[AndreiC]

17 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

There’s not a drift method and a crab method to the actual landing.  In either case, you kill sideways drift with bank and align the wheels with your motion which is typically straight down the runway on centerline at touchdown.  Rich landed on an angle across the runway (picture a pretend line pointing 45 degrees across the runway) so he turned part of the crosswind into a headwind.  
No matter if you crab or slip down final, you’ll land with the wing down into the wind (only enough to kill sideways drift) and opposite rudder to hold the nose straight to your line of motion (centerline for most, pretend centerline for Rich).  The crab vs slip debate is more about final.  On landing, youll be in a slip.  You should land in this forward slip with no sideways drift and the wheels pointing straight in your line of motion.  You will land on the upwind wheel first.  You will have opposite rudder in (youre in a slip after all), so you will need to kill that before setting down the nose since it happens to be connected to the nw steering. When you set down the downwind wheel and the nosewheel, you lose the drift compensation and you can start to weathervane as you slow, so you need to be careful even after landing.

This is in line with what I do, I just used the wrong wording to describe my question. The question is roughly at what crosswind component do you end up not having enough rudder authority to keep flying in a slip on final and maintain centerline (with the upwind wing down, and the nose aligned with the runway centerline).

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, AndreiC said:

OK, I understand now what you guys are talking about. Rich must of course have landed using the crabbing method. I generally use the slip method, never tried to land crabbing (and straightening the steering wheel right after touch down). I should try it some time, but for now my question is how much crosswind can a short body tolerate for the slipping method (where the rudder authority is the limiting factor)?

 

The answer to that question is that it depends.  First off, slipping to a landing in a crosswind is in my experience a very poor method to use.  It requires too much work and passengers don't like it.  Unlike the crabbing method, it's also hard to tell the magnitude of the crosswind.  With crabbing it's easy to tell magnitude by the angle of the crab to maintain the centerline.  That angle tells you what you need to know regarding flap configuration and speed.  If lined up on final with full flaps and normal approach speed, and your crab angle is greater than about 15°, then it's time to change things.  Flaps should go to approach or none and speed should increase enough to bring the crab angle back to 15°.  In any event no less than 10 knot increase to account for the stall speed increase with little or no flaps.  Transition to the wing low method for landing.  The plane needs to be flown onto the runway with a soft field technique.  As you reduce speed and increase aileron into the wind, maintain runway centerline.  If full aileron has been applied and the plane starts to drift, apply full power and go around.  Using this method a crosswind limitation cannot be stated, as it depends on the circumstance (headwind and crosswind components).

So, I can't give you a crosswind maximum that you should follow.  As more experience is gained, your limitation will increase.  This is meant to be a general overview on how to handle large crosswinds and not a lesson in landing in crosswinds.  For that you really should go out with an experienced Mooney instructor in large crosswinds (25 to 30 knot direct crosswinds with no headwind component).  Our airplanes can handle those.  Also, longer runways than usual may be needed depending on the headwind component.  Also, not to be forgotten is that with the increase in stall speed with no flaps, the airplane is done flying sooner, a good thing in such conditions.  While crosswinds can be challenging, that are also fun.  Oftentimes when we have strong winds out here, I'm off to the airport to practice.  I recommend the same for you.

[Ragsf15e]

7 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

This is in line with what I do, I just used the wrong wording to describe my question. The question is roughly at what crosswind component do you end up not having enough rudder authority to keep flying in a slip on final and maintain centerline (with the upwind wing down, and the nose aligned with the runway centerline).

Honestly, I haven’t run out of rudder.  But then the max x wind Ive landed in was ~25.  I prefer not to get down close to the runway in a strong crosswind, find out Im out of rudder and then go around.  I’m probably a little conservative but my Mooney flying is generally family trips with no set timeline, so I would consider my cargo (my family) and my selfish desire not to scare them so they’ll continue wanting to fly with me.  If the wind is steady, you can probably get 30kts and land fine, but you really want to make sure you don’t have a drift (side load on the gear).

[AndreiC]

@donkaye I understand what you are saying, and it is helpful to know that the plane can handle 25-30kts of crosswind. But the purpose of a self-imposed limitation is so that I don't have to make a decision on the spur of the moment whether to go somewhere else or not.

Yesterday I felt, after the fact, that I probably did exceed what I feel should have been my limits. As I said, I landed fine (especially since the wind quieted down a bit once down low, below the tree line), but it was uncomfortable and I would like to learn a lesson from this. Certainly I could have continued another 10 miles to another airport where they have a runway aligned much better with the wind, and I think this would have been a better decision.

So I now know that winds gusting to 28 is too much. I am trying to gauge what others set as their minimums in this respect, whether I should set my minimum at <25mph gusts, or <22mph gusts, etc.

[donkaye]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Honestly, I haven’t run out of rudder.  But then the max x wind Ive landed in was ~25.  I prefer not to get down close to the runway in a strong crosswind, find out Im out of rudder and then go around.  I’m probably a little conservative but my Mooney flying is generally family trips with no set timeline, so I would consider my cargo (my family) and my selfish desire not to scare them so they’ll continue wanting to fly with me.  If the wind is steady, you can probably get 30kts and land fine, but you really want to make sure you don’t have a drift (side load on the gear).

The truth is that with enough speed you won't run out of rudder.  With the higher stall speed with no flaps the plane will be done flying quicker when on the ground.  The problem can occur that after on the ground and slowing and with full aileron, the plane can't hold the runway.  In that case you are at a speed that you can immediately add power and go around without any more side slip.  So far I have never had a crosswind where that happened when I am on the ground.  I have touched down at 105 knots with a 40 knot direct crosswind with no headwind component many years ago.  The runway was long so there was time to slow down to a point where the weight of the airplane was enough to counter the force of the crosswind.

[Jeff Uphoff]

I landed my 231 once at OAK in a high-20s-gusting-30s nearly direct crosswind years back and...it was a thrill but never felt unsafe. Admittedly, I was flying 200+ hours per year back then, all over the continental U.S. and a lot of it hard IFR, and I was probably as proficient as I've ever been in a plane.

--Up.

[donkaye]

19 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

@donkaye I understand what you are saying, and it is helpful to know that the plane can handle 25-30kts of crosswind. But the purpose of a self-imposed limitation is so that I don't have to make a decision on the spur of the moment whether to go somewhere else or not.

Yesterday I felt, after the fact, that I probably did exceed what I feel should have been my limits. As I said, I landed fine (especially since the wind quieted down a bit once down low, below the tree line), but it was uncomfortable and I would like to learn a lesson from this. Certainly I could have continued another 10 miles to another airport where they have a runway aligned much better with the wind, and I think this would have been a better decision.

So I now know that winds gusting to 28 is too much. I am trying to gauge what others set as their minimums in this respect, whether I should set my minimum at <25mph gusts, or <22mph gusts, etc.

I understand the principle of setting minimums for yourself and that is a good thing, but you want to constantly be improving your skills.  28 knots feels uncomfortable for you now so set a lower limit for now.  But go up with an instructor in heavier winds to be able to raise that limit.  Sometimes you will arrive at an airport and not how what the winds are.  Then what?  Although I can't explain it, there will come time when you will know your airplane well enough that you can comfortably set up for a crosswind approach not knowing the wind and while on the approach (even on landing) know it is time to find another airport, all with no anxiety.

[donkaye]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

I landed my 231 once at OAK in a high-20s-gusting-30s nearly direct crosswind years back and...it was a thrill but never felt unsafe. Admittedly, I was flying 200+ hours per year back then, all over the continental U.S. and a lot of it hard IFR, and I was probably as proficient as I've ever been in a plane.

--Up.

After a lesson and long chat with a student at Hayward last year, I took off into a 52 knot direct headwind.  I was like a helicopter.  I had checked the winds at San Jose and they were 26 knots with a small crosswind component.  The trip home was bumpy and I was glad to be alone, but it was totally uneventful.  Preplanning was important, though.

[Jeff Uphoff]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

After a lesson and long chat with a student at Hayward last year, I took off into a 52 knot direct headwind.  I was like a helicopter.  I had checked the winds at San Jose and they were 26 knots with a small crosswind component.  The trip home was bumpy and I was glad to be alone, but it was totally uneventful.  Preplanning was important, though.

I landed my old M20C in 36G42 straight down the runway at WJF once. I've never carried so much power down final!

After landing, things got worse, and I watched a Cessna get blown over onto a wingtip and its prop, and a Champ wind up on its back, so I rented a car and drove home to San Jose!

--Up.