VFR into VMC

[201er]

Ah the dreaded VFR into VMC scenario...

Other than the poor planning, very well handled by the student pilot and controller. Good on him to fess up and ask for help! Goes to show that just because it's legal VFR doesn't mean it's a good idea to be flying in it.

For you non-instrument rated pilots out there, keep in mind that just cause some marginal VFR conditions are legal, doesn't mean you'll be able to see anything. At 3 mile visibility from 6000ft, you can only see about 2 miles ahead on the ground which is only about 1 minute ahead. You could be inside the delta of a towered airport and still not see the runway.

 

 

[redbaron1982]

Everyone talks about VFR into IMC, but I agree, the real killer is VFR into VMC!

[N201MKTurbo]

I once flew from the Aurora CO (RIP) airport to Centennial airport in reported 3 miles of vis. If I haven’t been super familiar with the ground references, it would have been impossible. I called the tower over Parker Road on a 5 mile right base to 28 with information XX. The tower said “OK, I can’t see you, cleared 28. Contact ground after landing.” I couldn’t see the runway until I crossed the fence. I was pretty close.

[midlifeflyer]

20 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I once flew from the Aurora CO (RIP) airport to Centennial airport in reported 3 miles of vis. If I haven’t been super familiar with the ground references, it would have been impossible. I called the tower over Parker Road on a 5 mile right base to 28 with information XX. The tower said “OK, I can’t see you, cleared 28. Contact ground after landing.” I couldn’t see the runway until I crossed the fence. I was pretty close.

Yeah, but that's Colorado where 10 miles visibility feels like IFR

The worst "VFR" I ever saw there was returning from St Francis during the Hayman fire. Centennial was giving Special VFR clearances for people caught in the practice area. 

[Paul Thomas]

One night over the everglades, I became so disoriented in VMC (optical illusion with lights in the distance at an angle) that I was wondering if the gauges were working correctly. I momentarily disengaged the autopilot to make sure the gauges were moving as they should and ended up with a map to cover up part of the windshield till I passed that road. If I didn't have IFR training, I would have screwed that one up... it's so hard to trust the gauges over the "natural" horizon.

There are several spots over the US that even in CAVU weather, it feels like IMC when it's dark out.

[redbaron1982]

1 minute ago, Paul Thomas said:

One night over the everglades, I became so disoriented in VMC (optical illusion with lights in the distance at an angle) that I was wondering if the gauges were working correctly. I momentarily disengaged the autopilot to make sure the gauges were moving as they should and ended up with a map to cover up part of the windshield till I passed that road. If I didn't have IFR training, I would have screwed that one up... it's so hard to trust the gauges over the "natural" horizon.

There are several spots over the US that even in CAVU weather, it feels like IMC when it's dark out.

From a practical point of view, Night VMC can be as bad as IMC. I think the US is one of the few countries in the world that doesn't require special training to fly at night.

I wouldn't be mad if they change the regs and make Night VFR a special endorsement. Although you might not require the procedural part of IFR training, at least for sure you need to be able to aviate and navigate using the instruments.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

From a practical point of view, Night VMC can be as bad as IMC. I think the US is one of the few countries in the world that doesn't require special training to fly at night.

I wouldn't be mad if they change the regs and make Night VFR a special endorsement. Although you might not require the procedural part of IFR training, at least for sure you need to be able to aviate and navigate using the instruments.

People that aren’t instrument rated that fly at night will end up IMC, it’s a matter of time. The reason is of course you often can’t see the weather coming

My first clue was the green position light had a halo around them.

Do NOT turn on the landing light, doing so will really mess you up it’s like flying inside of a ping pong ball.

[redbaron1982]

8 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

People that aren’t instrument rated that fly at night will end up IMC, it’s a matter of time. The reason is of course you often can’t see the weather coming

My first clue was the green position light had a halo around them.

Do NOT turn on the landing light, doing so will really mess you up it’s like flying inside of a ping pong ball.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. When I did my Night XC during my PPL training it was scattered and you could only tell there were clouds because the dark holes from the city lights. 

[IvanP]

4 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

There are several spots over the US that even in CAVU weather, it feels like IMC when it's dark out.

Flying over a large body of water on a moonless night is one example of IFR flying even in CAVU weather. 

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, IvanP said:

Flying over a large body of water on a moonless night is one example of IFR flying even in CAVU weather. 

It got a good friend ferrying an S2R-T660 over the Amazon in Brazil, I don’t know what he was doing out there at night but there are of course no lights in the Amazon.

He didn’t crash but did have to fight disorientation. I hate that, I got the leans so bad doing instrument training in a UH-1 that I made my shoulder sore I was pushing against the door so hard. That was flicker vertigo, sunlight coming in through the green houses but the blades strobing the sunlight, a piece of white poster board was over the windshield and it was flashing on it.

2 to 20 cycles per sec

[N201MKTurbo]

I had an old gray beard pilot tell me how to break vertigo. It sounded silly until one night I got the spins. I tried his method and it is solid. It completely cured it.

When you get the spins, close your eyes, tilt your head back as far as possible, then whack yourself as hard as you can in your forehead then tilt your head down and open your eyes looking at your AI. 
 

Remember this. You will need it some day and you will thank the old guy.

[dkkim73]

That was a fine controller in that initial scenario. People like that make aviation great. Sounds like maybe a pilot also. 

I always used to like night VFR because it was so calm and kind of like IFR light. But I started instrument work early so the nav was welcome. 

There are mostly definitely pitfalls and "marginal VFR" at night is like a shark in the deep as A64 implied with his comments. 

 

[Hank]

Night VFR just takes additional planning, and different, higher weather minimums than for Day flight. Weren't you required minimum Night hours, minimum Night landings and a Night XC to get your PPL?

I do, however, shy away from Night IMC. Too many things are stacked against me there. Higher ceilings are always good! No Night approaches to minimums, thank you!

We all have our own comfort level. 

[201er]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I do, however, shy away from Night IMC. Too many things are stacked against me there. Higher ceilings are always good! No Night approaches to minimums, thank you! 

I kind of find it funny when people are worried it might be dark when they’re flying in low visibility conditions where you already can’t see anything.

[Andy95W]

17 minutes ago, 201er said:

I kind of find it funny when people are worried it might be dark when they’re flying in low visibility conditions where you already can’t see anything.

I guarantee that in 30 years you’ll understand what Hank means.

[redbaron1982]

26 minutes ago, 201er said:

I kind of find it funny when people are worried it might be dark when they’re flying in low visibility conditions where you already can’t see anything.

You might be the first one with an autoland M20J... otherwise I do find the transition to visual at the end of instrument approach more challenging at night.

And not to mention having an engine failure with the ceiling at 500ft and dark below... 

Dark = more dangerous

IMC = more dangerous

Dark + IMC = much more dangerous

I'm not saying it is unsafe, but you're stacking your odds against you.

[201er]

41 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I guarantee that in 30 years you’ll understand what Hank means.

You mean it takes 30 years to learn this or that it’s a factor affected by age?

[bigmo]

By FAR the worst condition I can recall was bringing my F back from Seattle. We got a late start, and made the trip mostly at night. New Moon (that's no moon for the rest of us), a thin cirrus layer enough to block the stars. Somewhere over Idaho and into western Montana, we lost literally every sense of orientation. It was literally like barreling through space. I routinely fly in some pretty legit IMC and this was the worst I've had - the constant motion with no sense of any reference was extremely nauseating. It's hard to describe, but it was "darkroom dark".

 

 

[Pinecone]

My instructor told me about him ferrying a Citabria out west.  He landed in day time, got some fuel and food, and wanted to do one more leg.

So he took off after dark.  And had to fight himself the whole flight to not roll inverted.  He had done a lot of flying over the past few years in the East.  Lots of lights on the ground, not so many stars due to air pollution (years ago) and light pollution.

Out West, lots of stars, not many lights on the ground.  So his mind kept telling him he was upside down.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I guarantee that in 30 years you’ll understand what Hank means.

 

31 minutes ago, 201er said:

You mean it takes 30 years to learn this or that it’s a factor affected by age?

It's a combination of things:

• Good judgment come from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. 
• You must learn from other people's mistakes, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

So on this, I've learned from instructors and pilots who I respect.

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Dark = more dangerous

IMC = more dangerous

Dark + IMC = much more dangerous

I'm not saying it is unsafe, but you're stacking your odds against you.

You're certainly correct, and the points you make are not to be taken lightly. 

But what do you do if you live in the mountains, travel during winter, and work during the day?

I would respectfully suggest that there are no absolutes with respect to these factors, just elements of a composite risk calculation. Remote areas with mountains and known flats (even if remote) are different from places with no flat areas anywhere vaguely within glide. 

D

[Igor_U]

19 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

 

When you get the spins, close your eyes, tilt your head back as far as possible, then whack yourself as hard as you can in your forehead then tilt your head down and open your eyes looking at your AI. 

 

Is that whack in the forehead really necessary? 

[dkkim73]

18 minutes ago, bigmo said:

By FAR the worst condition I can recall was bringing my F back from Seattle. We got a late start, and made the trip mostly at night. New Moon (that's no moon for the rest of us), a thin cirrus layer enough to block the stars. Somewhere over Idaho and into western Montana, we lost literally every sense of orientation. It was literally like barreling through space. I routinely fly in some pretty legit IMC and this was the worst I've had - the constant motion with no sense of any reference was extremely nauseating. It's hard to describe, but it was "darkroom dark".

 

That is an interesting PIREP.  

I've experienced all the simple usual visual and vestibular illusions. I have not, in truth, ever really got the spins badly or suffered true incapaciting spatial disorientation, even as non-pilot crew. Mild spatial D, yes, but there are solid anecdotes of experienced flyers becoming basically useless (not that common). 

Anyhow, the worst psycho perceptual disorientation I ever had was driving on snowy/icy roads in a heavy snowstorm on a mountain pass in WA. I literally lost all sense of relative motion with the blindness of the flakes coming in from infinity. I actually told myself this is analogous to aviation, hold straight, gently let off the gas and let the speed bleed off. I had to slow way down and close my eyes to "cage" my sense of what was moving. 

In some of these situations airborne, it seems better to just transition inside and fly gauges. 

D

[redbaron1982]

4 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

You're certainly correct, and the points you make are not to be taken lightly. 

But what do you do if you live in the mountains, travel during winter, and work during the day?

I would respectfully suggest that there are no absolutes with respect to these factors, just elements of a composite risk calculation. Remote areas with mountains and known flats (even if remote) are different from places with no flat areas anywhere vaguely within glide. 

D

You're absolutely right.

There are risk factors that you don't want to stack together against you: night, IMC, single-engine, single-pilot, mountainous terrain, icing.

Can you successfully make an XC flight in IMC, at night, single-pilot in a single-engine airplane, in icing conditions, in mountainous terrain? I bet you can. Is it wise or safe? I'm sure it is not.

[dkkim73]

4 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Is that whack in the forehead really necessary? 

I'd never heard of this but it feels like there's a There there.

There are little mineral solids in your vestibular system that sense linear and angular acceleration (otoliths). Some clinical maneuvers to treat spurious sensations involve repositioning these (Dix-Hallpike maneuver for benign paroxysmal position vertigo). So it wouldn't completely surprise me if a whack on the head wasn't salutary. 

Aside: I think Fourier analysis explains why whacking machinery is good... a spike impulse is a superposition of multiple frequencies, thus empirically exciting resonances of multiple unknown mechanisms. @EricJ please critique my theory

D