Replaced Starter - Invoice was WAY more than expected

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

you can't remove or install the cheeks and the top in 5 minutes....unless you have 6 people working it at the same time...The two bolts in the front that hold the top on that need to be removed near the air inlet take about 10-15 minutes each to remove....

 

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Five minutes to remove, maybe six to reinstall. There are four bolts at the front and two at the rear of the top, then a whole bunch of quarter-turn dzus fasteners. Five at the back, and what 12 or 14 on each cheek? Quick, quick, quick.

Reassembly is easier if you put both cheeks on, and leave the top fastener on each side open until after fitting the top.

I've spent much of my career working in or with industrial maintenance, I've never spent more than one minute to remove a single #8 screw like is on the front of our cowls. Even though these are Philips and not socket heads, they come out easy.

Mooney changed the design of the cowling in 1965.  Everything prior uses about 70 screws and bolts and is a PITA.  After 1965, it’s a 5 minute job for the cheeks and top.

[Jim Peace]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

Five minutes to remove, maybe six to reinstall. There are four bolts at the front and two at the rear of the top, then a whole bunch of quarter-turn dzus fasteners. Five at the back, and what 12 or 14 on each cheek? Quick, quick, quick.

 

The 1964 C that I own will take 20-30 minutes to remove the cowling.....if you are lucky....so many screws you cannot count them....

[jetdriven]

36 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

The 1964 C that I own will take 20-30 minutes to remove the cowling.....if you are lucky....so many screws you cannot count them....

The upper cowling probably, but the lower cowl is a whole bunch of extra stuff such as the landing light wiring, the carburetor air boot, or the ram air door, which takes 15 or 20 minutes of it just to disconnect without it falling apart. the the oil cooler and the hoses that go to that.  They’re fastened into the inside of the lower cowl also. 

[Greg Ellis]

2 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

The 1964 C that I own will take 20-30 minutes to remove the cowling.....if you are lucky....so many screws you cannot count them....

Same with my 63 C model.  I believe I counted 75 screws to remove the two cheeks.  Then the nuts and bolts up front to actually take the top cowl off are a real pain to get anything onto them.

[carusoam]

17 hours ago, gwav8or said:

Well fortunately for me, I don't have the doghouse.  But from what I understand, part of the aluminum baffling has to come off and according to the mechanic, the alternator also had to come off.  So, that along with the Power Boost inlet and the oil cooler the bottom cowl had to come off.  idk but after looking at it more closely myself that seemed accurate.  To my untrained eye.

looks like we may have identified an important issue…

The M20C grew out of the M20A, B, and early M20C….

The 1965 M20C got a bunch of upgrades that make the plane more reliable, and more livable…

the Dzus fasteners seam to be key here… simple quarter turns… still there are a few important screws up front…  

let’s be real… 15 minutes to remove or replace a screw fastener is not normal. All of the hardware can be replaced new, like for like, from aircraft spruce… or updated to the newer style with the help of your mechanic…

 

But, we may have found another detail to add to the confusion…

the dog house didn’t go away until the fiberglass cowls of the M20J were built… and silicone rubber was invented.

Sounds like your M20C may have been ‘upgraded’ along the way…

 

Are you familiar with the dog house?

or just didn’t recognize it for what it is…?

 

you can download a copy of the parts and service manuals for your plane…

They help to better understand what was delivered with your plane…

your logs will (usually) reference when large things have been removed from the plane…

 

keep in mind… even when you take your plane to an MSC… a rogue mechanic can remove important parts without your knowledge… ask @Jim Peace about the experience he has had.

 

in this thread…

you have a few current M20C owners, some former owners, and many owners of very similar Mooneys.

most are GA pilots only, a few pro pilots… A few engineers, a couple of mechanics, and a handful of people I haven’t met yet…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Now is the time to start planning your first annual…

the first annual is where you find out how well your plane was really maintained…

expect the cowl removal experience gets multiplied by a very large number… to cover the same details in different locations.

taking 15 minutes for each screw… will take more than a year to complete.

get prepared with the parts manual…. Start acquiring sets of the proper fasteners made out of your favorite material…

 

be sure to make friends with your maintainer…. They can save you a ton of dough.

and… you can learn a ton of details about normal practices regarding re-use, replacement, and changing types of fasteners…

 

first annuals are often surprising… even for low hour planes, built 30 years later… 

Second annuals are so much easier…

 

no fear…

We have all been there before…

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Andy95W]

Hey Jim- @Jim Peace-

You should consider a remote oil filter on the co-pilot side.  Sorry about the poor photo quality.

[gwav8or]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

looks like we may have identified an important issue…

The M20C grew out of the M20A, B, and early M20C….

The 1965 M20C got a bunch of upgrades that make the plane more reliable, and more livable…

the Dzus fasteners seam to be key here… simple quarter turns… still there are a few important screws up front…  

let’s be real… 15 minutes to remove or replace a screw fastener is not normal. All of the hardware can be replaced new, like for like, from aircraft spruce… or updated to the newer style with the help of your mechanic…

 

But, we may have found another detail to add to the confusion…

the dog house didn’t go away until the fiberglass cowls of the M20J were built… and silicone rubber was invented.

Sounds like your M20C may have been ‘upgraded’ along the way…

 

Are you familiar with the dog house?

or just didn’t recognize it for what it is…?

 

you can download a copy of the parts and service manuals for your plane…

They help to better understand what was delivered with your plane…

your logs will (usually) reference when large things have been removed from the plane…

 

keep in mind… even when you take your plane to an MSC… a rogue mechanic can remove important parts without your knowledge… ask @Jim Peace about the experience he has had.

 

in this thread…

you have a few current M20C owners, some former owners, and many owners of very similar Mooneys.

most are GA pilots only, a few pro pilots… A few engineers, a couple of mechanics, and a handful of people I haven’t met yet…

Best regards,

-a-

A very important detail, kind sir is that I have a 1967 M20F, not a C.  :-)

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

A very important detail, kind sir is that I have a 1967 M20F, not a C.  :-)

Complete with I think 14 dzus per cheek; and 5 rear dzus, 4 front screws and 2 rear screws on the top cowl, right?

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Complete with I think 14 dzus per cheek; and 5 rear dzus, 4 front screws and 2 rear screws on the top cowl, right?

That's the way my '70F is set up.

[PT20J]

 

[jamesm]

it doesn't help about this time last year or maybe about April or may Hartzel up their prices from around ~$700 ish for  149 NL starter  to later in the year 2024  to ~$1200 ish and to added insult to injury they want your core  for your old Skytec  core but only offer you $200 for the core.   Some how the places that use to repair / overhaul  the Skytec seem to no longer exists or hard to find. 

 

[MikeOH]

What actually gets replaced in a starter overhaul?  I can't imagine that they get rewound; more like brushes and bearings replaced and commutator turned, I would guess.  BWTHDIK?

[1967 427]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

What actually gets replaced in a starter overhaul?  I can't imagine that they get rewound; more like brushes and bearings replaced and commutator turned, I would guess.  BWTHDIK?

And I highly expect that the brushes and bearings are automotive standards or easily accessible off the shelf standards.  Usually the only component that fails in an automotive idler pulley on a serpentine system is the $13 bearing.  I enjoy the challenge of disassembling, figuring out bearing size and sourcing it.  Anybody can just go and purchase the $65 replacement idler assembly.

[Pinecone]

Since the starter is basically an auto starter, it likely that there is a local place that can repair/rebuild.