Removing vacuum system

[warrenehc]

Hello, I am new into the Bravo and am wondering if I can remove the vacuum system.

I am installing dual G5’s soon. That is when I would remove.

It has JPI 900 and Garmin 650 and KAP150.

After swapping for the G5’s I don’t know of what else needs the vacuum system.

Am I missing something?

What is everyone’s experience removing the system?

 

[Rmnpilot]

I didn’t think the G5s could control the Bendix autopilots, at least not anything with attitude?   The 275s can.   Either way, you should be able to remove the vacuum as long as nothing else relies on the system.  

Edited December 17, 2024 by Rmnpilot
Added lack of attitude control

[LANCECASPER]

59 minutes ago, warrenehc said:

Hello, I am new into the Bravo and am wondering if I can remove the vacuum system.

I am installing dual G5’s soon. That is when I would remove.

It has JPI 900 and Garmin 650 and KAP150.

After swapping for the G5’s I don’t know of what else needs the vacuum system.

Am I missing something?

What is everyone’s experience removing the system?

 

Two G5s won't provide attitude to your KFC150 autopilot. As @Rmnpilot mentions, you'll need a GI-275 with the autopilot interface to replace the KI-256 attitude indicator and another GI-275 to replace the KI-525 HSI. This will not only allow you to remove the vacuum pump(s) but will allow you to remove the remote gyro (KG102A) in the back of the airplane.

If you have an early M20M with vacuum speed brakes you'll need the vacuum pump to run them.

[slowflyin]

I installed two GI-275s in my Bravo.  Removed the entire vacuum system including the backup pump system in the avionics bay.  All said and done, Gained 42#s in UL!

And yes, G5s won't run the AP.  

[Bolter]

33 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

I installed two GI-275s in my Bravo.  Removed the entire vacuum system including the backup pump system in the avionics bay.  All said and done, Gained 42#s in UL!

And yes, G5s won't run the AP.  

The G5 in place of the HSI will work fine with the KAP150.  I had this combination in a J, leaving the original AI in place for a future upgrade.  It is the G5 as an AI that becomes an issue for the AP, but the GI 275 will work there.  The mix and match of G5 and GI275 is aesthetically bad, though.  There is also the frankenstein approach where you put a legacy AI in a spare space in the panel just for the AP to reference.    

[affricate]

1 hour ago, slowflyin said:

I installed two GI-275s in my Bravo.  Removed the entire vacuum system including the backup pump system in the avionics bay.  All said and done, Gained 42#s in UL!

And yes, G5s won't run the AP.  

42lbs is a big deal!

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Bolter said:

There is also the frankenstein approach where you put a legacy AI in a spare space in the panel just for the AP to reference.    

I would want to have, in my scan, an AI that's failing and tumbling in IMC while my autopilot is following it. 

[warrenehc]

17 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Two G5s won't provide attitude to your KFC150 autopilot. As @Rmnpilot mentions, you'll need a GI-275 with the autopilot interface to replace the KI-256 attitude indicator and another GI-275 to replace the KI-525 HSI. This will not only allow you to remove the vacuum pump(s) but will allow you to remove the remote gyro (KG102A) in the back of the airplane.

If you have an early M20M with vacuum speed brakes you'll need the vacuum pump to run them.

With what you listed above, does the KAP150 need anything else do drive a preselected altitude from the GI275 or will the 275 do that when selecting altitudes on its own?

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, warrenehc said:

With what you listed above, does the KAP150 need anything else do drive a preselected altitude from the GI275 or will the 275 do that when selecting altitudes on its own?

I don't believe it will give you altitude pre-select.

https://static.garmin.com/pumac/gi275_autopilot_compatibility_c.pdf

 

(By the way I was thinking you had a KFC150. If it's a KAP150, then the attitude indicator is a KG258, instead of a KI256. The only difference in the two autopilots is that the KFC150 has a Flight Director and the KAP150 doesn't. Everything else I mentioned applies though.)

https://www.bendixking.com/content/dam/bendixking/en/documents/downloads/006-08377-0001_1-kap-150-ki-525a-pilot-s-guide.pdf

[slowflyin]

4 hours ago, warrenehc said:

With what you listed above, does the KAP150 need anything else do drive a preselected altitude from the GI275 or will the 275 do that when selecting altitudes on its own?

I have the KFC150 with a GI275 driving it.  My installer left the King Alt. Preselect the panel and I was told the GI 275 would not drive Alt preselect.   

[PilotX]

My speed brakes are vacuum powered so I kept one pump.

[Patrick Horan]

If I have a legacy g500 and the KDC150 auto-pilot. If I install a gi275, I can get rid of the vacuum. But can I have the g500 or gi275 power my altitude preselector?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Patrick Horan said:

If I have a legacy g500 and the KDC150 auto-pilot. If I install a gi275, I can get rid of the vacuum. But can I have the g500 or gi275 power my altitude preselector?

With your Garmin G500 display you either have a GAD43 or a GAD43e. If you have the "e" you have pre-select built-in. If not, you need to keep the KAS-297B pre-select for your KFC150 autopilot. (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/62760#additional)

Looking at your panel (https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/228929665/n9153z-1996-mooney-m20m-bravo)  it looks like the only vacuum instrument you have is your backup attitude indicator. You could get rid of your vacuum pump (and backup vacuum if you still have it) by installing any approved electric attitude indicator, which would be much less expensive than a GI-275.

[Patrick Horan]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

With your Garmin G500 display you either have a GAD43 or a GAD43e. If you have the "e" you have pre-select built-in. If not, you need to keep the KAS-297B pre-select for your KFC150 autopilot. (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/62760#additional)

Looking at your panel (https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/228929665/n9153z-1996-mooney-m20m-bravo)  it looks like the only vacuum instrument you have is your backup attitude indicator. You could get rid of your vacuum pump (and backup vacuum if you still have it) by installing any approved electric attitude indicator, which would be much less expensive than a GI-275.

Thanks!! Yea I have a GAD43, so I would need a 43E to delete the preselector! 

Thanks. I'm planning on upgrading the g500 to the txi and installing a gi275. 

And also installing a surefly!

First though, I still have to fix the dang over heating issue on the right side of my Bravo. It is starting to get discouraging.

Edited January 2, 2025 by Patrick Horan

[Marc_B]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

With your Garmin G500 display you either have a GAD43 or a GAD43e.

When I had my KFC150, this is exactly what I had.  G500, GAD43e.  Controlled GPSS and altitude preselect through the G500.

[LANCECASPER]

35 minutes ago, Patrick Horan said:

Thanks!! Yea I have a GAD43, so I would need a 43E to delete the preselector! 

Thanks. I'm planning on upgrading the g500 to the txi and installing a gi275. 

And also installing a surefly!

First though, I still have to fix the dang over heating issue on the right side of my Bravo. It is starting to get discouraging.

Did your intercylinder baffles ever get sorted out, with the springs holding them tight underneath? 

There are a handful of Mooney guys that know this engine really well.  @philiplane on here does.  David Behrens at Dugosh in Kerrville TX, Brian Kendrick n San Marcos, TX; Kerry McIntyre (https://www.knr-inc.com/), also I'm sure Top Gun in CA as well. 

Also if any Bravo owners on here could provide you with good pictures underneath of a cool running engine that would help.

[adverseyaw]

My avionics guy, who has since retired, was unable to get my G500/GAD43E to do altitude preselect to the KFC 150. When I pressed him on it, he pointed to several different versions of the King autopilot interface (possibly on the KC 192 but I don't recall exactly) and that the one I had didn't happen to have an input compatible with the 43E. He remarked that there were several different versions of the interface based on the controller part number, and some of them different pretty significantly. If it helps, the P/N for my KC 192 is 065-0042-03.

At this point it's moot for me because I'm getting the KFC pulled out in favor of a GFC 500, which is hands-down a much better autopilot.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, adverseyaw said:

My avionics guy, who has since retired, was unable to get my G500/GAD43E to do altitude preselect to the KFC 150. When I pressed him on it, he pointed to several different versions of the King autopilot interface (possibly on the KC 192 but I don't recall exactly) and that the one I had didn't happen to have an input compatible with the 43E. He remarked that there were several different versions of the interface based on the controller part number, and some of them different pretty significantly. If it helps, the P/N for my KC 192 is 065-0042-03.

At this point it's moot for me because I'm getting the KFC pulled out in favor of a GFC 500, which is hands-down a much better autopilot.

Did you have pre-select before the upgrade?

[adverseyaw]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Did you have pre-select before the upgrade?

Yep. For reference, my KAS 297B is a 065-0065-01. Other p/ns I can find on the internet for various flavors of the 297 include 065-0046-02, 065-0089-16, 065-0043-02, 065-0053-04. Some minor differences between them like the number of buttons on the front, but all are the same basic layout in the octagonal frame.

Edited January 7, 2025 by adverseyaw

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, adverseyaw said:

Yep. For reference, my KAS 297B is a 065-0065-01. Other p/ns I can find on the internet for various flavors of the 297 include 065-0046-02, 065-0089-16, 065-0043-02, 065-0053-04. Some minor differences between them like the number of buttons on the front, but all are the same basic layout in the octagonal frame.

He should have been able to make it work.

[Jetpilot86]

On 1/2/2025 at 10:59 AM, Marc_B said:

When I had my KFC150, this is exactly what I had.  G500, GAD43e.  Controlled GPSS and altitude preselect through the G500.

I have this setup except with a G600 PFD/MFD