Mooney crash in NY area

[johnggreen]

This is an awful situation.  Patrick obviously had made many friends here.  It is almost irreverant to discuss the possible causes of this accident or any accident so soon, and among people to whom Patrick was more than just a name.  So, I apologize in doing so.  That being said, "we" are discussing the possible causes and in the interest of the safety of other readers, there are two points I would like to bring up while attention is focused on this accident scenario.

First, a couple of weeks ago, I took to task some fellow MS members on tauting the safety virtues of the Mooney structure.  I won't do so again in this thread.  I will only respectfully remind all that if you don't come into contact witht the ground in a controlled configuration, the tube structure is of almost no value.  I would also point out that on the Beechtalk site, the same argument about the superiority of the Beech structure is also being made; both with no engineering or statistical data to back it up.

Secondly, I gather from previous posts that this takeoff was in rain.  Rain significantly deteriorates the performance of the Mooney laminar flow wing.  I notice it on the Bravo in cruise where the airplane slows down several knots in rain and more significantly on an instrument approach.

My chosen seating position in the Bravo is low to give me lots of headroom.  The glare shield is barely below my line of sight over the cowling in this position.  On an instrument approach in rain, I always crank my seat up before the FAF.  If I don't, when I break out, I will not be able to see the runway einvironment because of the higher than normal angle of attack during approach because of the rain.  I forgot this on a low min approach in VA a few months back.  When I broke out at 300 and less than one, with rain, I could barely get up high enough to see the runway.  I don't know how much rain increases the ground run or reduces the initial climb, but it is significant.

Guessing, and I'm only making an "educated" guess, but I would bet that the airplane simply did not have enough runway and insufficient speed for climb.  it either stalled or just mushed into the trees.  There has been no description of a mechanical failure that I believe is a probable cause of this accident.

Jgreen

[GaryP1007]

Does anyone know why Patrick was selling his plane?  

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: GaryP1007

Does anyone know why Patrick was selling his plane?  

[GaryP1007]

He was so proud of his Mooney....but didnt own it that long.

[Seth]

Patrick's business card even had a twin on it.  He was very interested in moving up to a twin, but boy did he love his Mooney and love flying.  We met at the Giant's playoff game fly in (thank you to all who set these fly in's up - I think it was Mike) and he and I communicated by phone a few times afterward.  He really loved flying and was very happy with his new paint job.  We chatted about the cross country flight to get it painted.  To find out about the crash and his death last week while out of town at a conference was terrible.  I actually had his card in my briefcase at the time.

This may be the wrong place to mention this, but unfortunaly incidents like this illustrate a very important issue:  make sure if you have loved ones that depend on you that you have adequate life insurance, advanced health care directives, a proper will, and if needed, appropriate trusts. 

I hope that the fly in on Saturday at Cape May went well (I really wanted to be there) and I hope since many of the NJ pilots group attended, including those that knew Patrick, that stories and smiles were plentiful remembering him. 

It's always hard when it hits close to home.

My thoughts are with Patrick's and his passengers loved ones and family.

-Seth

[GaryP1007]

Well said Seth.

[fantom]

Quote: Seth

his may be the wrong place to mention this, but unfortunaly incidents like this illustrate a very important issue:  make sure if you have loved ones that depend on you that you have adequate life insurance, advanced health care directives, a proper will, and if needed, appropriate trusts. 

[flyboy0681]

Quote: fantom

Why?

It could never happen to me!

Until it does.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: flyboy0681

Way off this tragic topic but there's a lot of truth to this. I recently lost my brother to melanoma and my sister-in-law (from another brother) to lymphoma and neither one of them had any life insurance, not even a basic policy. It's not something we like to think about, but when the unexpected happens it makes a really bad situation that much easier for the surviving spouse and kids.

Considering what a lot of people spend their discretionary money on, such as $5 lattes, this buys a lot of peace of mind.

 

[Cris]

Patrick was living his dream. He had set his sights on a professional career as a pilot. To accomplish that objective Patrick enrolled in an Aviation college in his 30's, purchased a complex A/C 95' M20J and flew as much as he could in all types of sceanarios. Once when I asked him why he flew all over the US as he did in marginal conditions he said it was what would get him to his objective. As is often stated "good judgement comes from bad decisions" especially aviation judgement. I'm hear to say that I have experienced terrible iceing conditions and work hard to avoid any such conditions. I have landed in 40 knot head winds and 25 knot cross winds and not had an incident but almost... As a result I now land at a differant airport with more favorable runways. I have even landed with minimum fuel load at night in an A/C rental that I thought had 60 gal tanks but really only had 48 gal. I now check the POH every time. I have lived thru the bad decisions. Maybe I was lucky. My point is that flying is not inherently dangerous but it is terrible unforgiving. Those that have reinforced bad decisions with favorable results often continue to push the envelope with disaster as an end product. Do I think that happened to Patrick? I really do not know but I think not. Patrick was conscious of the responsiblity he had to others. He was also due to become a graduate of a respected aviation college program which by definition taught safety first. He had two other pilots on board who must have had some input into the decision making process. My vote is mechanical at least in part. I know from another on this Board who shared with me the fact that Patrick's J did not have the same T/O & climb performance as this members M20J. They actually flew together in each others A/C to compare on the same day and conditions. Now it remains to be seen if Patrick did anything with that information. This lack of performance could be a prop governor or a bad tach giving errouneos readings. I'm sure that will come out during the NTSB review. Patrick was a good guy but not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of his A/C from my discussions with him. He basically went to the AP with a blank check book. That might also have entered into this tragedy. After all if you say keep me safe to the AP and I'll pay whatever. You expect value for your maintenance dollar. Typically this will come down to pilot error, mechanical error or a combination thereof but I for one will wait and see. Patrick we will keep you in our prayers.      

[LuvFlying]

Let me add my voice to the choir of "I'll miss Patrick"

I met Patrick at a NJ Fly-in and was moved by his kind soul.  It was wonderful to hear his voice on the phone Wednesday encouraging me to come to Saturday's Mega Mooney Fly-in.

He was certanly one of the good ones.  I'll miss him.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Cris

My vote is mechanical at least in part. I know from another on this Board who shared with me the fact that Patrick's J did not have the same T/O & climb performance as this members M20J. They actually flew together in each others A/C to compare on the same day and conditions. Now it remains to be seen if Patrick did anything with that information. This lack of performance could be a prop governor or a bad tach giving errouneos readings. I'm sure that will come out during the NTSB review. Patrick was a good guy but not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of his A/C from my discussions with him. He basically went to the AP with a blank check book. That might also have entered into this tragedy. After all if you say keep me safe to the AP and I'll pay whatever. You expect value for your maintenance dollar. Typically this will come down to pilot error, mechanical error or a combination thereof but I for one will wait and see. Patrick we will keep you in our prayers.      

[DaV8or]

Quote: Cris

I know from another on this Board who shared with me the fact that Patrick's J did not have the same T/O & climb performance as this members M20J. They actually flew together in each others A/C to compare on the same day and conditions. Now it remains to be seen if Patrick did anything with that information.

[Parker_Woodruff]

And also need to remember that Patrick's airplane could have weighed 100 or more pounds heavier, depending on the other airplane in comparison, due to model year differences.  But that is still interesting info. 

[Chessieretriever]

Sad series of events. Most folks that know this airport do not take off on this runway due to the terrain (slopes up in the direction of your climb and has 2 red lights at the top of the mountain). Unfortunately there is even the chance of a runway intersection TO which would leave only about 1100 feet of pavement with a 100ft obstacle at the end and therefore make it a mission that is simply not possible with a J model with 3 folks on board even with low fuel. Our thoughts are with the family of the friends we lost.

[Cris]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

And also need to remember that Patrick's airplane could have weighed 100 or more pounds heavier, depending on the other airplane in comparison, due to model year differences.  But that is still interesting info. 

[mooneygirl]

Quote: Cris

Parker- You make an excellent point which caused me to look at the performance charts of an M20J-201 vs M20J-205 (Patricks) The 205 has a a 160 lb weight increase to 2900 lbs. However if operated at gross weight there is a significant performance differance in T/O and climb between the two. In fact depending on conditions it might well have been a 1000' differance to clear a 50' object. BTW the POH specifies that the landing gear should not be retracted until clearing obstacles which could explain why the gear might have been in the down position.  

[Skywarrior]

Crap. Above post was mine. Damn login bug...

[cujet1]

Quote: jetdriven

Something not discussed here, magneto timing. His engine was a FREM IO-360-A3B6.  No dual mag. Which, I bet you, means 20 degrees of timing.  I wish I would have documented ours better but this makes a huge difference in takeoff distance and climb.   For those of you who think 20 degrees of timing is "more conservative" I fail to see how less horsepower at the crank is more of anything. I would wager that all things equal, that at the 3000' point a 25 degree timed engine is going to have another 50' of altitude over one that is not. If anyone wants to have a contest I'd be glad to hold it.

And a blank checkbook means an airplane that has more maintenance induced failures an an owner with less money.  Check out that thread about precautionary landings and engine failures.  3/4 of them started off with "after having XYZ done, I had an engine failure."  Money does not equal safety. A knowledgeable pilot and a mechanic, with a mentality of looking for trouble without always finding any is the best policy.  Brains are the best tool in the hangar. I do fly at night and all over. I do not worry about engine failures, although I do prepare for them.

[cujet1]

There are all sorts of ideas on landing gear retraction. But, one needs only to look at how the pro's do it. Positive rate of climb, gear up. End of discussion. Retracting the gear won't cause a crash, but leaving it down certainly can, and has.

 

[Cris]

I've never seen a 205's POH, but I have never read that advice anywhere. I have read that you should not raise the gear until there is no possibility of landing on the remaining runway in front of you.

Waiting to retract gear until all obstacles have been cleared makes no sense to me...

[fantom]

Quote: Cris

... always retract the gear as I believe it gives better climb performance but maybe Patrick did not and he would have been correct not to do so according to the POH. I was also referring to Patrick's 95 M20J as a 205 but what I was really using was a POH dated 1/96 for an M20 J with a 2900 Lb gross weight as opposed to 2740 for the earlier J. I believe that is what Patrick was flying.   

[Parker_Woodruff]

This was discussed in the AOPA forums.  There are certain airframes that cause MORE net drag DURING gear retraction, rather than leaving the gear down until obstacle clearance.  That's the reason that some POHs call for retraction only after obstacles are cleared, and some do not.

[co2bruce]

Mooney Eagle (M20S) POH also states "RETRACT IN CLIMB   after clearing obstacles" , I have always been taught to retract when there is no longer enough runway to safely land straight ahead.

[flyboy0681]

As a group that stated early on that they weren't going to speculate, there's been an awful lot of speculation.

I'm hoping that the survivor will shed all the light on this that we need. Beware of black swans.