Question for CFII's

[jkenney]

I had an interesting experience this past weekend and wanted to get some input from all of the IFR guru's out there.

I was flying into North Las Vegas Airport (KVGT) from the Los Angeles area on an IFR flight plan.   I have done this twice in VMC and both times ATC has brought me up the west side of the Las Vegas Class B at 9000ft, which basically keeps me out of the Class B airspace.   About 10 miles away and nearly abeam the airport I was cleared for a visual approach to runway 30.   This required me to drop 6000 feet in short order to get down to pattern altitude.   Boy I was grateful for the speedbrakes on the Ovation.

A few miles closer to the airport the approach controller switches me over to tower who instucts me to enter a left base for runway 30.   Given my high descent rate (about 1500ft per minute at this point) I make a slight turn to the right to make sure that my base leg is not too tight and that I have time to slow down and configure for landing.

At this point the tower tells me "turn left 15 degrees to avoid Class B airspace".  I complied with the instruction, which made my base considerably tighter than I was comfortable with, I was able to line up with the runway, but my airspeed was higher than I would have liked.   I got things under control by using speedbrakes on final, something I almost never do.

Obviously there are a number of things I could have done to get to a much more stable approach profile, such as a descending 360 or badgering ATC for a vector that would have allowed me to descend earlier (they kept me at 9k for terrain clearance).  None of this would have been an issue if I had been allowed to fly the wider base leg that I was setting up for orginally.

So my question to the group is about a visual approach on an IFR flight plan.   My understanding is that it is an "instrument approach procedure", which on an IFR flight plan should have meant that I had clearance into the Class B airspace, is that correct?   Does the tower instruction to avoid the Class B now supercede my earlier approach clearance?  Given that the instruction caused me to fly a more difficult approach profile should I have said I could not comply and flown into the Class B?

I am very interested to hear what the community thinks, or how others would have responded.

 

[1964-M20E]

I’m currently working on my IFR and I’d say

 

1. 
   
2. ATC mostly likely did clear you into class B airspace
   
3. You did not have to accept the visual approach from ATC
   
4. You could have requested the instrument approach even though it was VMC.  This would have meant you would need to go east of the airport to pick up the GPS to 30L in the class B
   
5. Once you accepted the visual approach and ATC turned you over to the tower the responsibility is on you and the tower and you need to comply with the tower instructions or request different instructions.
   
6. The tower may have thought you were confused and were heading to the other airport.
   
7. You could have done a low pass and circle back around in the pattern for another shot at 30L
   

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I’m not a CFI but here is my 2 cents….The tower instruction for you to remain clear of class B supersedes any previous instruction you may have been given. You had to remain clear once told to do so. If you, as PIC, feel any instruction provided by ATC is going to jeopardize the safety or safe outcome of your flight it’s your responsibility to let ATC know.  If you would have done that I think ATC at a minimum would have provided you with alternatives to help you achieve your desired goal of being able to land safely by setting up for a stabilized approach.

[bnicolette]

Quote: 201-FLYER

If you, as PIC, feel any instruction provided by ATC is going to jeopardize the safety or safe outcome of your flight it’s your responsibility to let ATC know.  If you would have done that I think ATC at a minimum would have provided you with alternatives to help you achieve your desired goal of being able to land safely by setting up for a stabilized approach.

[Cris]

Quote: jkenney

So my question to the group is about a visual approach on an IFR flight plan.   My understanding is that it is an "instrument approach procedure", which on an IFR flight plan should have meant that I had clearance into the Class B airspace, is that correct?   Does the tower instruction to avoid the Class B now supercede my earlier approach clearance?  Given that the instruction caused me to fly a more difficult approach profile should I have said I could not comply and flown into the Class B?

[kris_adams]

I hate it when this happens. I find the same thing...kept high coming into or near the bravo around Atlanta followed by getting turned over to the tower way high. I do a couple of things. Since I have no speed brakes on my J, as I get closer to my destination, knowing they are going to hand me over high, I try to make sure my airspeed is really under control, maybe even a little slower given the descent that is about to happen. Then if needed, I'll as for a wide pattern or a 360 if approach is really bad to me.

I did have to ask for a left 360 coming into KLZU a few months ago. They gave it to me and way cool about it.

Good luck!

[N33GG]

This kind of challenge can still happen when you are in IMC and full IFR.  In particular, I remember lots of approaches into Burbank, Ca. and Houston Hobby where they bring you in close to the airport very high, and clear you for the ILS approach.  You have to drop fast and steep to get down before you pass the airport and you must intercept the glide slope from above.  Some people refer to this approach as the slam dunk approach.  In Burbank, it is because of terrain issues around the airport.  In Houston, no terrain excuses.  I used to fly a BE58TC frequently into both airports, and with no speed brakes.  The key was to be ready for such a clearance, reduce power and get the plane slow early close to gear and flap speed, and be ready to drop everything for help controlling speed and descent without pulling back the throttles and shock cooling the engines.  Similar techniques are in order for Mooneys.  

Not all approaches are text book fashion.  And if you fly enough, you will likely see lots of variations.

Early in my flying, I once asked an older CFII about a very abnormal NDB approach I had been given on a previous flight.  His response to me was: "It's like old people having sex... you do it any way you can!". Maybe not the most professional answer I have ever heard, but it has always stuck with me.

[Txbyker]

N9154X,

I am not quite a year old IFR pilot.  On one of my first IFR trips coming home last year in VMC conditions I was sent into Class B at a high altitude up there with descending commercial jets. Like a rookie I asked ATC if I was "cleared into class B?" and he replied very puzzled and said you are on an IFR flight plan and you are always cleared into class B under IFR and there is no need to ask.  I am not a CFI.  

 

[Hank]

Quote: Kris_Adams

I hate it when this happens. I find the same thing...kept high coming into or near the bravo around Atlanta followed by getting turned over to the tower way high. I do a couple of things. Since I have no speed brakes on my J, as I get closer to my destination, knowing they are going to hand me over high, I try to make sure my airspeed is really under control, maybe even a little slower given the descent that is about to happen. Then if needed, I'll as for a wide pattern or a 360 if approach is really bad to me.

I did have to ask for a left 360 coming into KLZU a few months ago. They gave it to me and way cool about it.

Good luck!

[jackn]

I agree what has already been said. On a practical matter, If in VFR conditions, and nearing my destination, I'll cancel IFR but maintain advisories. That way I won't have to worry about class C, and can request a class B clearance (if needed).

[jkenney]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I was expecting the visual approach and had I planned it better I could have slowed up and configured for the approach before the descent.  Because I was relying on the speedbrakes instead of good planning to get me to where I needed to be, I was immediately behind the a/c once I got the unexpected instruction about the class B airspace.  

Stuff like this is what makes flying so enjoyable, you are always confronting new challenges and, hopefully, learning from them.

 

[N33GG]

Quote: jkenney

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I was expecting the visual approach and had I planned it better I could have slowed up and configured for the approach before the descent.  Because I was relying on the speedbrakes instead of good planning to get me to where I needed to be, I was immediately behind the a/c once I got the unexpected instruction about the class B airspace.  

Stuff like this is what makes flying so enjoyable, you are always confronting new challenges and, hopefully, learning from them.

 

[201er]

Quote: txbyker

N9154X,

I am not quite a year old IFR pilot.  On one of my first IFR trips coming home last year in VMC conditions I was sent into Class B at a high altitude up there with descending commercial jets. Like a rookie I asked ATC if I was "cleared into class B?" and he replied very puzzled and said you are on an IFR flight plan and you are always cleared into class B under IFR and there is no need to ask.  I am not a CFI.  

 

[WardHolbrook]

I'm a long-time CFII and I used to fly out of VGT, but it was back in the pre-Cambrian and I'm sure that what was the case back then isn't the case now. After reading your post, my first thought was that there must be some sort of Letter of Agreement between the VGT tower and LAS approach that is in effect that mandates IFR aircraft on visual approaches remain clear of Class B airspace. So be it, no big deal.

Some other thoughts...

Why would you cancel IFR while you're on approach in Class B airspace? One of the expectations that ATC has in IFR operations is that everyone will be predictable. What would possibly gained?

As for speed brakes, they are nothing but a tool. Like any other tool, you won't necessarily use them on each and every flight. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with using them when the conditions warrent. It sounds to me like you handled things appropriately and did what needed to be done to effect a safe flight. Now you know why there's a difference between 500 hours of experience and one hour of experience repeted 500 times. 

 

 

[201er]

Quote: WardHolbrook

Why would you cancel IFR while you're on approach in Class B airspace? One of the expectations that ATC has in IFR operations is that everyone will be predictable. What would possibly gained?

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: 201er

Because you're landing at an uncontrolled airport underlying class B airspace and ATC (for lack of a better term) demands that you cancel as soon as you can make it visually?

[201er]

Quote: WardHolbrook

Because you're landing at an uncontrolled airport underlying class B airspace and ATC (for lack of a better term) demands that you cancel as soon as you can make it visually?

[gregwatts]

Quote: 201er

Because you're landing at an uncontrolled airport underlying class B airspace and ATC (for lack of a better term) demands that you cancel as soon as you can make it visually?

[gregwatts]

Quote: 201er

The only reason to cancel inflight prior to touchdown is for your convenience. How can ATC demand that you cancel IFR? What if you're still IMC? They don't know whether you're IMC or VMC. When you're IFR you've got a parcel of airspace that belongs to you and ATC is tasked to keep other IFR traffic out if it. It really screws up ATC planning when, out of the blue, an IFR airplane unexpecedly turns itself into a "wildcard" by unexpecedly cancelling IFR.

[WardHolbrook]

It's a situational thing. Generally speaking, what I said is true, but as Mike and Greg pointed out, there are exceptions. That's why the words "always" and "never" and other absolutes have little place in aviation. Don't get me wrong, I cancel IFR in the air fairly frequently, but it's normally for one of two main reasons - my convenience (it can be a pain in the keester to cancel on the ground at some airports) or I'm trying to be a nice guy and free up the airspace for a departure to get out. Our corporate flight department operates two Falcon 900s and a Falcon 50. We operate in and out airports both in and under Class B airspace on a very regualr basis. The key to operating IFR is to be predictable. One of the keys to safely operating IFR is to not let ATC push you into making a bad decision for their convenience. They've been know to occassionally do that. 

[hobbit64]

Slam dunks frustrated the heck out of me when I was flying little jets.  Those things are slicker than.. and getting hung up high was frequent in some areas.  I hated spoliers and chop and drops as they sometimes startled the uneasy sheeple in the back.  I tried to fly like someones Grandma was back there, it wasn't always easy.  Like other said, you start to get a feel for the places it happens.  ATC has a whole set of constraints we'll never get to see.  A simple inquirie may provide the the answers or push you back up in his/her list of priorities.   99% of  controllers are GREAT and team oriented, let them know your needs when appropriate and they'll probably do their best to make it work in their plans.

 

My humble $0.02 on cancelling:

Make sure that if you cancel your IFR clearance that you can maintain VFR cloud clearances. 

In the rare circumstance that you are on an IFR flight plan and executing visual approach in wx just 'skoash' enough to be less than 91.155 and you cnxl ifr, you are open for a bad day if certain folks are around. 

I always do my best to help out ATC (this goes a LONG way), but you need to be assertive (they may not know that the WX at your Class G just went south) and pick your battles.  Frustrated voices may not be directed precisely (sp?) at you, just their continual need to stuff 10 lbs of @#$% into a 5 pound bag.

[Seth]

Mike and all-

As for cancelling IFR in Class B.  I have had to deal with that at times as well when I used to fly out of Freeway (W00) and not as much to an extent, but also techincally when flying into (GAI).  At Freeway, the Bravo airspace begins at 1500 msl, and at KGAI it is 3500 msl.  This is the BRAVO around DC for BWI, DCA, and IAD (and technically Andrews AFB as well).  Since these airports are still within the SFRA, you're still in communication with controllers after cancellation, but that does not matter for the example I'm about to give.

I realized the same question during my IFR training - can you cancel IFR when in class Bravo - the answer I recieved from my CFII, and really never bothered to double check, so I guess I'm doing that here, was:  Once you cancel IFR in class Bravo, you are allowed to remain in class Bravo.  However, once you exit class Bravo airspace, you cannot reenter class Bravo without a new class Bravo clearence.

Example.  I am at 2500 feet, direct Freeway (W00) on an IFR flight plan and I now have the field in sight.  I make my call to Potomac Approach that I have Freeway in sight and will cancel IFR at this time.  They will state that cancellation is recieved, keep my beaco code (because I'm in the SFRA - we never squak 1200) frequncy change approved.  That point I'm in Class Bravo, within 8 or so miles of Freeway (W00) and now on the Freeway common traffic advisory frequncy.  However, I'm still in the Bravo.  I begin my decent to the airport, and once I cross 1500 msl in the decnet, I'm out of the Bravo, in the VFR space under the Bravo shelf, and cannot reenter the Bravo.  Techincally, I guess I could have stayed in the Bravo, and then spiraled down to the field once I was over it at 2500, but again, that is not what is normal, and I porbably woudl have stated my intentions to the controllers before switching to the common traffic advisory frequency.

Just Sunday coming back from the VA Festival of Flight (I'll post on that in a bit) I had an IFR plan and was in the lower Bravo heading to Gaithersburg (KGAI).  They had me at 3000 feet as I neared KGAI but I was still in the 2500 foot floor area for the Bravo.  When I had the field (it was a bit more than 10 miles out) I cancelled IFR in the Bravo, got my usual instructions, and simply flew out of the Bravo toward KGAI (the shelf soon raised to 3500 msl so I was only within the Bravo for a short period) but was able to stay higher and out of the bumps as long as I could, and I'm sure my passenger was happy about that.

Let me know if I'm breaking rules, and hopefully this will help shed some light.  It seeems to be a common practice here in DC, or at least near W00 - the guys who taught me IFR.

-Seth