Recommendations on a pre-Mooney first plane?

[BlueSky247]

Hey Guys,

Single guy in my 50's here in the SE US working through the PPL in an archer and planning to go straight into IFR. I'll be flying for fun and cross-country trips. Also plan on adding MEL, complex, high performance, etc. down the road.

I'm tired of lighting money on fire via the school's rental fleet and looking to get a decent IFR-capable bird once I finish the PPL.

I've decided on the M20C long term but I know that's too much plane for a new pilot. So I am thinking of something like a musketeer or grumman for the first year while I get the ifr rating, build time for the better insurance rates and search for the right mooney. What planes would you guys recommend that could be kind of a bridge between a trainer and the mooney?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited May 16 by BlueSky247
grammar

[wombat]

Piper Arrow

[Hank]

I went from C-172 to M20-C with 62 hours, five weeks after my PPL. Just get a great Mooney instructor and stay in student pilot mode. Oh, I was 44 years old at the time. Hold on when you get the insurance quote, but 100 hours in type will help, and IR will also help.

I have no idea what to fly "between".

[alextstone]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

I went from C-172 to M20-C with 62 hours, five weeks after my PPL. Just get a great Mooney instructor and stay in student pilot mode. Oh, I was 44 years old at the time. Hold on when you get the insurance quote, but 100 hours in type will help, and IR will also help.

I have no idea what to fly "between".

OP, you should do some honest self assessment. How comfortable are you with the Archer you currently fly?  Do you feel like you're "behind the plane" a lot or so you feel like you're waiting until the right time to make the next input?  Are you a fast learner?  A Mooney M2C is not a HUGE step up if you're already secure in your foundation.  Also, congrats on jumping into this wonderful life expanding skill as a "middle aged" guy (coming from a 56yo who's feeling his age) 

 

Alex

[BlueSky247]

Thanks Guys. I'm picking things up pretty well and actually just pulled off a near greaser in a stiff crosswind yesterday. 

I've had a lot of time in high performance cars and bikes, so I'm sure that helps. I'm just trying to be cautious as I know these are not as forgiving on the landings and I'd be mortified if I porpoised it and caused a prop strike. Where I live, it is often very windy and gusty so that is something I have to factor in.

[KLRDMD]

Just get the M20C now but get a high time Mooney instructor to do your transition training. Chances are this isn't the 25 y/o at the flight school although he'll tell you he's fine to do this training.

[Fly Boomer]

51 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

What planes would you guys recommend that could be kind of a bridge between a trainer and the mooney?

I like what KLRDMD said above -- an instructor with thousands of hours teaching in a 172 is not what you are looking for.  Also, I would think about your mission.  If 99% of your time is flown seeking the $100 hamburger, an arrow is a great airplane.  If you have a need or desire to go to destinations hundreds or thousands of miles distant, get the Mooney.

[Igor_U]

58 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

 

I'm tired of lighting money on fire via the school's rental fleet and looking to get a decent IFR-capable bird once I finish the PPL.

 

If you think renting is expensive, just wait 'till you own the plane! 

On the other hand, I see no reason why would you buy some other plane for a year, then sell it and by M20C. Selling and buying is expensive and stressful enough, not to mention you might need to pay sales tax depending where you live.  

Good luck

[bcg]

Buy the Mooney...I had a total of 20 hours and hadn't soloed yet when I got mine, it's not that much more to manage. Much cheaper to buy your 2nd plane first.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Lax291]

My personal journey, got my PPL with a Warrior and actually purchased a J half a year before I got my license (knew it was going to be in maintenance for a while after the purchase). 

Was the transition a lot, yes. Was it insurmountable, no. Just know your limits and fly with a Mooney CFI until you get comfortable.  If you're going for your IFR, and can find a Mooney CFII, kill 2 birds with one stone. 

Now not sure how you'll add a second engine to the Mooney when you're ready for the MEL rating...

[McMooney]

just get the m20c, fly with an instructor till your comfortable.  

I went from rentals to an m20e as my first plane. 

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, Lax291 said:

My personal journey, got my PPL with a Warrior and actually purchased a J half a year before I got my license (knew it was going to be in maintenance for a while after the purchase). 

Was the transition a lot, yes. Was it insurmountable, no. Just know your limits and fly with a Mooney CFI until you get comfortable.  If you're going for your IFR, and can find a Mooney CFII, kill 2 birds with one stone. 

Now not sure how you'll add a second engine to the Mooney when you're ready for the MEL rating...

This is good advice, like much of what is here on this thread. 
A Mooney is totally doable for a newbie. Just realize it will extend your primary training. 
Respect your limits, be humble, and fly a frequently as you can. 
A Mooney is a very stable, predictable and safe plane, just like any plane, if you stay within the envelope you will be fine. 
Learning in your long term plane is not a bad idea, just understand that it takes commitment and patience. 

[BlueSky247]

Thanks Everyone! Really appreciate all the advice and pointers. 
 

There’s a nice looking 62 on trade a plane nearby in ATL, but it’s at 2200 smoh. Ooof. 

[hubcap]

I personally think a Piper Cherokee is a great first plane. You can definitely fly IFR in one, and they are much slower than a Mooney which will help immensely in an IFR environment. If you are flying an Archer now, why not stick with it until you get a couple of hundred hours? It will make transition to the Mooney much easier after you get that experience. I would recommend not moving to a complex aircraft until after you get your instrument rating.

[Gone]

Negotiation on that 2200 smoh bird will have to include a discussion about either the provision of an engine with significantly less time than a run out one, or some sharing on the cost of the overhaul as part of the price.

Or you can walk away and look at another opportunity when it comes up.  

Luck is defined as "preparedness" meeting "opportunity."  Be prepared (mission, airframe, engine, and avionics specifications you have set your sights on) and you should be able to identify the opportunity when it occurs.  And "correct" is way, way, way more important than "quick."

[BlueSky247]

The market sure is weird these days. People asking a fortune for rusty old panels and midtime engines. Or in this case, a nicely upgraded plane has been timed out. Hard to fathom paying nearly 80k for a plane older than me where the interior looks like it’s been parked outside with missing windows. 

[LevelWing]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

I went from C-172 to M20-C with 62 hours, five weeks after my PPL. Just get a great Mooney instructor and stay in student pilot mode. Oh, I was 44 years old at the time. Hold on when you get the insurance quote, but 100 hours in type will help, and IR will also help.

I have no idea what to fly "between".

This is nearly the same experience as me. I did one flight with an instructor as a "transition" flight and I was good to go for insurance purposes.

26 minutes ago, hubcap said:

I personally think a Piper Cherokee is a great first plane. You can definitely fly IFR in one, and they are much slower than a Mooney which will help immensely in an IFR environment. If you are flying an Archer now, why not stick with it until you get a couple of hundred hours? It will make transition to the Mooney much easier after you get that experience. [b]I would recommend not moving to a complex aircraft until after you get your instrument rating.[/b]

I did my complex endorsement at the end of my primary training. I bought the Mooney without an instrument rating and had no issues flying it. I see no correlation between a complex aircraft and an instrument rating.

[Gone]

22 minutes ago, LevelWing said:

This is nearly the same experience as me. I did one flight with an instructor as a "transition" flight and I was good to go for insurance purposes.

I did my complex endorsement at the end of my primary training. I bought the Mooney without an instrument rating and had no issues flying it. I see no correlation between a complex aircraft and an instrument rating.

I had 250 hours when I bought my E model. Three years later, I finally got my instrument rating. Mooneys are great instrument training platforms.

[Utah20Gflyer]

As long as you get to fly a plane for the money you give the school you aren’t burning money.   The primary reason to purchase a plane is not saving money.  Control, performance and access might be reasonable reasons.  In order to save money you’d have to fly a lot and get lucky nothing breaks.  
 

My advice would be to get your instrument in the rental plane and then buy a C model Mooney.   By that time you’d have sufficient hours and competency to upgrade.  

[MikeOH]

I bought my M20F with 2100 SMOH, appropriately discounted. Over 6 years and 500 hours later, still running well.  What was important to me was recent and consistent use when I was shopping; SMOH was not that critical.  Additionally, I like the idea that I will be in control of the overhaul when the time comes.

[AndreiC]

As others have said, I think buying a plane for a year or two and then upgrading to an M20C will end up being unnecessarily expensive. Rarely is a new plane you buy exactly the way you want it. You end up spending a lot of money in the first couple of years on things that are important to you, but may not be important to the next buyer. (Example: for me shoulder harnesses and a fuel flow monitor/totalizer are essential safety items. Others may not care much for them.) Plus, every new mechanic will find things they want done their way; that's why first annuals are always expensive affairs. So buying a plane for 1-2 years and then selling it is a bad plan financially. 

One option that you did not discuss is joining a club. If you fly enough, and there is a good club in your area, it can be cheaper than to own or to rent. I figured out that for me the break-even point was around 75 hours/year of flying between being in a club and owning my plane. I ended up getting my own plane because I wanted to have the freedom to go when I want, where I want, but financially it may still make more sense to be in a club.

Regarding airplane types if you still want to buy an intermediate plane. I have owned 3 Piper Cherokees and they were simple, reliable, and great flying airplanes for which parts are not hard to find. (I am talking about the fixed gear ones.) I have over 1000 hours in them over 25 years and they have served me very well. The only reason I upgraded to an M20E is because in the current upside-down market I was able to sell my Cherokee 180 with 1600 hours SMOH and buy with the same money a well-maintained E with 500 hours SMOH. Hard to believe, honestly.

One other thing that was mentioned several times on this site. Of 10 people who start getting their license, only 2 finish it, and only 0.5 stay active a long time afterwards. So make sure that your desire to be cool and have your own plane is not going to wane in a few years, leaving you with an unused asset. Unless you have a clear mission in mind, there are only so many $100 hamburgers you can fly to...

[BlueSky247]

Much appreciated all. I should mention that I am currently driving an hour from home to get to the nearest decent school. And sometimes the plane and/or cfi are not available for a couple of days each week, so that has slowed down my planned training frequency. My home field is less than ten minutes away and once I have the ppl, I figured I can go with an independent cfi with more availability for the ifr. 

[Hank]

11 hours ago, LevelWing said:

I bought the Mooney without an instrument rating and had no issues flying it. I see no correlation between a complex aircraft and an instrument rating.

Instruments is an insurance thing. Mooneys are made to travel, and will easily cross weather systems. My checkout required 5 hours actual or simulated IMC, and I only had 62 total hours at purchase. This was intended to keep me alive while traveling VFR, because the actual weather doesn't always match the forecast. 

11 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

I had 250 hours when I bought my E model. Three years later, I finally got my instrument rating. Mooneys are great instrument training platforms.

Training in the plane that you will fly is good. You will know how the plane responds, and will become very familiar with the installed avionics. 

[dkkim73]

15 hours ago, AndreiC said:

Rarely is a new plane you buy exactly the way you want it. You end up spending a lot of money in the first couple of years on things that are important to you, but may not be important to the next buyer. (Example: for me shoulder harnesses and a fuel flow monitor/totalizer are essential safety items. Others may not care much for them.) Plus, every new mechanic will find things they want done their way; that's why first annuals are always expensive affairs. So buying a plane for 1-2 years and then selling it is a bad plan financially. 

This has been my experience. Even with good advice and good-to-excellent mechanics, there is a period when you need to get the airplane dialed in. And yes, the mechanics disagree frequently, leaving you to use your intuition and comb the networks (human and digital) for advice. 

For me, it's worth it to get something familiar and trustworthy for my mission and beyond. 

For starting out... I don't know. Lots of good arguments above. Busting out an instrument rating with a good instructor (worry more about your own formation, habits and the "Law of Primacy" than equipment, maybe) will pay dividends down the road. 

The Warrior/Archer is a bombproof approach to basic IFR training. I would argue the utility of *any* Mooney is much greater with an instrument rating. I flew 1.9 the other day, 0.2-0.3 actual IMC, but the flight was made possible by the rating (and TKS but that's another story). 

 

DK

[bcg]

21 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

I would argue the utility of *any* Mooney is much greater with an instrument rating. I flew 1.9 the other day, 0.2-0.3 actual IMC, but the flight was made possible by the rating (and TKS but that's another story). 

 

DK

I would definitely agree with this.  At least 1/2 the flights I've made since getting my instrument rating in Jan have been at least partially in IMC and would have been impossible without it.  It's a game changer for sure.