Help picking the right Mooney...

[enginenerd]

Hi guys, 

I have a little family, based in Utah. 2 adults & 2 toddlers. We want to tool around the west- up to oregon, down to california- and in between, essentially. I am a new pilot, working on my instrument rating, so I want something somewhat reasonable to run. Right now at least, the kids need to get out and run around after 3-4 hours MAX, so nobody is going for the iron bladder challenge. 

Hangers near me are not a thing (5-10 year waits). so it'll likely sit on the ramp, then shade hangers, then someday a t hanger. With that in mind, I'm tempted to buy something where the value is more on the engine hours, avionics, and so forth- and less so on aesthetics. 

I'm shopping everything from M20J's to 252's / Encores to Ovations. 

I'm curious what your take on the best fit is for this mission. There's a pretty steep price jump from a J to a nice 252 or Encore, yet- a lot of 252 have TKS and such which may be a big deal here. 

Your thoughts? 

 

 

[Fritz1]

Welcome to the beginning of the journey. Lots of parameters to consider. Based on my limited life experience airplanes that are not operated for profit are best bought for cash. If things go south they can be converted back to cash to add fuel to a business. Typically another 20-30% of the purchase price of a well maintained aircraft is spent on repairs and upgrades in the first two years. A plethora of knowledge can be derived from talking to people that maintain and overhaul the birds, dealers and owners. This process can take a couple of months to a year. Studying for sale ads and logbook also gives you valuable insights. When I was airplane shopping 7 years ago I was looking at Encores and Bravos, both with TKS. The Encore has the best overall airframe balance. After in depth discussions with engine shops I bought the Bravo which is a tad nose heavy. The process took about two years while flying a 182RG in a partnership, accumulating the budget, analyzing dozens of logbook, two pre purchase inspections and test flights to buy one aircraft. Take your time to figure out what you want and the buy the best aircraft that you can afford. 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, enginenerd said:

Hi guys, 

I have a little family, based in Utah. 2 adults & 2 toddlers. We want to tool around the west- up to oregon, down to california- and in between, essentially. I am a new pilot, working on my instrument rating, so I want something somewhat reasonable to run. Right now at least, the kids need to get out and run around after 3-4 hours MAX, so nobody is going for the iron bladder challenge. 

Hangers near me are not a thing (5-10 year waits). so it'll likely sit on the ramp, then shade hangers, then someday a t hanger. With that in mind, I'm tempted to buy something where the value is more on the engine hours, avionics, and so forth- and less so on aesthetics. 

I'm shopping everything from M20J's to 252's / Encores to Ovations. 

I'm curious what your take on the best fit is for this mission. There's a pretty steep price jump from a J to a nice 252 or Encore, yet- a lot of 252 have TKS and such which may be a big deal here. 

Your thoughts? 

The first thing to shop for is for insurance.  @Parker_Woodruff is a good resource. He has a lot of Mooney time, and has worked the underwriting and broker side of aviation insurance..

[Pinecone]

I agree with the shopping insurance to get an idea first.

Are you really wanting to flirt with ice with your family?  I would love to have TKS, but I also can live without it and NOT mess with ice.

I am biased, but I think the 252/Encore is the ultimate Mooney.  A very nice balance of range, fuel flow, performance.  If you want to chat about it, let me know.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, enginenerd said:

Hi guys, 

I have a little family, based in Utah. 2 adults & 2 toddlers. We want to tool around the west- up to oregon, down to california- and in between, essentially. I am a new pilot, working on my instrument rating, so I want something somewhat reasonable to run. Right now at least, the kids need to get out and run around after 3-4 hours MAX, so nobody is going for the iron bladder challenge. 

Hangers near me are not a thing (5-10 year waits). so it'll likely sit on the ramp, then shade hangers, then someday a t hanger. With that in mind, I'm tempted to buy something where the value is more on the engine hours, avionics, and so forth- and less so on aesthetics. 

I'm shopping everything from M20J's to 252's / Encores to Ovations. 

I'm curious what your take on the best fit is for this mission. There's a pretty steep price jump from a J to a nice 252 or Encore, yet- a lot of 252 have TKS and such which may be a big deal here. 

Your thoughts? 

 

 

Turbo and TKS open a much wider vista of options with less anxiety.  See the post from @Pinecone just above.

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, enginenerd said:

Hi guys, 

I have a little family, based in Utah. 2 adults & 2 toddlers. We want to tool around the west- up to oregon, down to california- and in between, essentially. I am a new pilot, working on my instrument rating, so I want something somewhat reasonable to run. Right now at least, the kids need to get out and run around after 3-4 hours MAX, so nobody is going for the iron bladder challenge. 

Hangers near me are not a thing (5-10 year waits). so it'll likely sit on the ramp, then shade hangers, then someday a t hanger. With that in mind, I'm tempted to buy something where the value is more on the engine hours, avionics, and so forth- and less so on aesthetics. 

I'm shopping everything from M20J's to 252's / Encores to Ovations. 

I'm curious what your take on the best fit is for this mission. There's a pretty steep price jump from a J to a nice 252 or Encore, yet- a lot of 252 have TKS and such which may be a big deal here. 

Your thoughts? 

 

 

I am in Spokane and have 2 small (8 year olds) as well.  I have an F which is great for us.  If I was you, I’d probably stick with an F or a J.  Several reasons… in Utah, no reason to mess with ice because it’s generally clear outside of storms and you’re not flying in them anyway.  Also, kids grow.  You’re gonna need useful load and tks is (relatively) heavy.  If you want a newer plane, eagle/ovation both have good ul.  I find non turbo aircraft just fine out west, just fly in the morning which you probably want to do anyway.  Everyone will have an opinion here of course.  Sure, a pressurized, twin turboprop would be great, but …

Also insurance is gonna be expensive for a new pilot so check that out with parker.

[skydvrboy]

First, get on the hangar lists as soon as possible.  The wait isn't nearly as long as they quote you.  If a hangar comes up every month and there are 60 people in front of you on the list, they'll tell you it's a five year wait.  In reality, when each hangar comes open, most of the people on the list either won't have an airplane or aren't ready to buy on right then, so they go to the next person on the list.  When I got my hangar, everywhere around here said there was a 5-10 year wait list.  Turned out it was a year and six months before my name came up due to all the people who passed.

Second, if you really think you will wait a long time for a hangar, I think you'd be better off looking for something older than a J.  You'll lose a lot less value leaving an "cheaper" older plane out on the ramp than you will a newer, more expensive, one.

Third, do you think you'll still own this plane when the kids are teenagers?  The kids and all your luggage are going to fit just fine in any Mooney right now, but they'll grow.  If you still own this plane in 15 years, you'll be glad you got the longer model (G, F, or J).

Last, and most importantly, find a the best maintained plane that is equipped with the avionics you want/need for the type of flying you will do.  It's a good bet that one flying reguarly (100 hrs/yr) will be in a lot better condition mechanically than one that is rarely flying.  Any of these planes will meet your needs (unless you plan on flying in icing conditions).  There is far more difference between individual planes (equipment, condition, maintenance, etc.) than there is between different models. 

Happy hunting and let us know what you end up with!

[Ragsf15e]

13 hours ago, enginenerd said:

Hi guys, 

I have a little family, based in Utah. 2 adults & 2 toddlers. We want to tool around the west- up to oregon, down to california- and in between, essentially. I am a new pilot, working on my instrument rating, so I want something somewhat reasonable to run. Right now at least, the kids need to get out and run around after 3-4 hours MAX, so nobody is going for the iron bladder challenge. 

Hangers near me are not a thing (5-10 year waits). so it'll likely sit on the ramp, then shade hangers, then someday a t hanger. With that in mind, I'm tempted to buy something where the value is more on the engine hours, avionics, and so forth- and less so on aesthetics. 

I'm shopping everything from M20J's to 252's / Encores to Ovations. 

I'm curious what your take on the best fit is for this mission. There's a pretty steep price jump from a J to a nice 252 or Encore, yet- a lot of 252 have TKS and such which may be a big deal here. 

Your thoughts? 

 

 

Consider this UL exercise and definitely ask the Useful Load on each one you look at… this is for an io-360, so not one with tks.

3.5 hours fuel + 1 hour reserve is (roughly) 45-50 gallons (could be more or slightly less depending on how you operate). So lets say that’s 300lbs.  Me and my wife are 310lbs total.  We’re up to 610.  My 8 year olds are 65lbs a piece.  We’re at 740 (and they apparently grow ).  Now you’ve got 25 lbs of flight gear, oil, survival kit, tow bar, etc and 100lbs of luggage (or kids stuff).   You are at ~870ish.  Now you’re flying out of (anywhere in Utah) in summer and density altitude is 4000-6000’ (even in morning), so you’d prefer to be lighter than mgw.  My F has ~1040lbs of UL.  We regularly fly a 525nm route from Spokane to Carson City Nv (4700’ elevation) and back with a one hour reserve.  On this route, I take off with 50-55 gallons depending on winds.  It’s possible with growing kids, but you will definitely want to consider the UL.

PM me if you have any specific questions or want to discuss over the phone.

I definitely agree with trying everything to get a hangar as well.  

Edited March 31, 2024 by Ragsf15e

[enginenerd]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I agree with the shopping insurance to get an idea first.

Are you really wanting to flirt with ice with your family?  I would love to have TKS, but I also can live without it and NOT mess with ice.

I am biased, but I think the 252/Encore is the ultimate Mooney.  A very nice balance of range, fuel flow, performance.  If you want to chat about it, let me know.

I've just flown or attempted to fly weekly all winter this year in the Salt Lake Valley. An awful lot of plodding around in 34-36f with thin clouds above and occasional drizzle and such. Also being stuck in or out of a valley with a thin layer is a thing out here too. It seems like in those kinds of conditions it would be nice to have onboard even avoiding ice. I have no intentions of going and battling it out through known icing. 

For example, the other day, I was VFR on top in an archer at 9500- there was a little layer from 8k to 7k, and I had to divert (I'm VFR for now, but the -10C would have been a show stopper regardless). The canyon below was too sketchy to try to sneak through at 6500 feet when I took a peek. 

On insurance, yeah, I'm collecting some Arrow hours right now, but the one I have access to is miserable. I don't think I'll get too many, that thing makes me nervous. I was going to get some more by flying out my old instructor with me to pick it up and flying it home, then, if necessary- pick up liability only (required in Utah) for the time being. 

I'll DM you on the 252.

On the UL, yeah, I really want something up near 1000, if not over a bit. That rules out some, depending on options. My kids are 30/40# right now, obviously they won't stay that way.  Turbo would be a big deal taking off near gross @ 9k DA, that's kinda what's pushing me into looking at turbo stuff. Also I would say I would always try to fly 9500-12k+ feet- around here below 9500 is a swarm of flight school planes 24/7. It's just not worth the hassle.

U42 in SLC is 5600 feet, but often 8-9k DA in the summer. I did all my flight school in 172 / Archer because climb performance on the 152's is so miserable here unless you're both light. 

 

Edited March 31, 2024 by enginenerd

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, enginenerd said:

I've just flown or attempted to fly weekly all winter this year in the Salt Lake Valley. An awful lot of plodding around in 34-36f with thin clouds above and occasional drizzle and such. Also being stuck in or out of a valley with a thin layer is a thing out here too. It seems like in those kinds of conditions it would be nice to have onboard even avoiding ice. I have no intentions of going and battling it out through known icing. 

For example, the other day, I was VFR on top in an archer at 9500- there was a little layer from 8k to 7k, and I had to divert (I'm VFR for now, but the -10C would have been a show stopper regardless). The canyon below was too sketchy to try to sneak through at 6500 feet when I took a peek. 

On insurance, yeah, I'm collecting some Arrow hours right now, but the one I have access to is miserable. I don't think I'll get too many, that thing makes me nervous. I was going to get some more by flying out my old instructor with me to pick it up and flying it home, then, if necessary- pick up liability only (required in Utah) for the time being. 

I'll DM you on the 252.

On the UL, yeah, I really want something up near 1000, if not over a bit. That rules out some, depending on options. My kids are 30/40# right now, obviously they won't stay that way.  Turbo would be a big deal taking off near gross @ 9k DA, that's kinda what's pushing me into looking at turbo stuff. Also I would say I would always try to fly 9500-12k+ feet- around here below 9500 is a swarm of flight school planes 24/7. It's just not worth the hassle.

U42 in SLC is 5600 feet, but often 8-9k DA in the summer. I did all my flight school in 172 / Archer because climb performance on the 152's is so miserable here unless you're both light. 

 

One thing to watch is that many of the turbo versions have a lower useful load and/or require more fuel, so just keep an open mind to compare apples to apples. Best UL TKS airplanes are Eagle and early Ovation.

[Vance Harral]

Everyone's family is different, but consider the possibility that by the time the kids are heavy enough to make a significant dent in useful load, they won't necessarily want to go on flying trips with you.  Not because they don't like you or don't like flying, but just because such is the nature of teenagers.  Several of us speak from experience on this front.

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, enginenerd said:

On the UL, yeah, I really want something up near 1000, if not over a bit. That rules out some, depending on options. My kids are 30/40# right now, obviously they won't stay that way.  Turbo would be a big deal taking off near gross @ 9k DA, that's kinda what's pushing me into looking at turbo stuff.

U42 in SLC is 5600 feet, but often 8-9k DA in the summer. I did all my flight school in 172 / Archer because climb performance on the 152's is so miserable here unless you're both light. 

While a turbo would certainly increase your options, don't rule out the vintage Mooneys. Even my little C meets your requirements--useful load is 970 lbs, full fuel of 300 lbs is good for 5-1/2 hours or more (full fuel is me plus 470 lbs). But back seat leg room is limited, and the F has larger baggage space.

My C will outclimb and outfly 172s and Archers, and use less fuel doing it. I've kept an F in sight, landing about 10 minutes behind him (the F took off first, too), on a flight just over an hour.

E models should be similar, but with slightly higher fuel burn when not LOP. Few carbureted planes will go LOP well.

Caution about the G:  while it has the same engine as my C, and is in the larger F fuselage, the max gross is strangely limited to 2525 (I think, it may be lower) compared to the 2575 in my C.

[Mufflerbearing]

I fly regularly between KCOE Coeur 'd Alene and KSPK Spanish Fork.  The perfect plane for me is the Screaming Eagle.  Excellent UL plus it has FIKI.  I do haul up to 4 adults on occasion plus stuff.  I do watch the weight of the fuel but when I fly 3 adults, I can fly this route round trip with 2.5 hours of fuel remaining. 

These are amazing machines.

[Pinecone]

On 3/31/2024 at 2:19 PM, Ragsf15e said:

One thing to watch is that many of the turbo versions have a lower useful load and/or require more fuel, so just keep an open mind to compare apples to apples. Best UL TKS airplanes are Eagle and early Ovation.

My 252/Encore is 1119 useful (no TKS) and burns 10.1 GPH at 175 KTAS in the upper teens.

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I fly a G model with an 875 lb useful load in Utah and can take my wife and two of my smaller kids on 500-600 mile trips no problem.  That’s going to max out your 3 hour trip time anyway.   
 

I personally wouldn’t try to take off at 9k DA unless I was by myself. Even if I had a turbo and a nice 10000 foot runway I don’t think my family would enjoy being in a plane when it’s 95+ degrees and the air is bumpy.    You have to be careful to keep experiences positive.  One bad ride and your spouse or kids may not want to fly quite some time.  I’ve cancelled a number of flights for the sole reason I thought the air wasn’t smooth enough for a non pilot.   
 

I think you’d be fine with a non turbo Mooney for a while.   Performance is better than anything else you’ve flown up to this point.  I am a person who likes the idea of upgrading incrementally.   Others just say buy your forever plane.  That often works out fine, but sometimes people also kill themselves and others doing that.  If you choose the forever plane route take it very seriously both in training and limiting what you are doing with the plane until you have more experience.  
 

And don’t forget U42 is at 4600 feet, pattern altitude is 5600.  

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Even if I had a turbo and a nice 10000 foot runway I don’t think my family would enjoy being in a plane when it’s 95+ degrees and the air is bumpy.

Tell passengers that all air has bumps, and make sure seat belts are tight.  Then, keep climbing until it's smooth as glass and "air conditioned".

[sleeper-319]

I was in your situation a few years ago. I bought an 87 J, and have owned it just about 3 years now. In other words, I’m at the noob end of the spectrum, not the expert end.  

The J is a wonderful plane. As mine is equipped now, it comes pretty close to ticking the boxes. I’ve got 940 useful. I’m in the SF Bay Area, but I have flown in and over the Rockies a handful of times, and over the Sierras and Los Padres a lot. My dispatch rate has been good, and I’ve got awesome A&P/IA that encourages me to do maintenance and repair work under their supervision. So all in all I’ve got a great plane, costs have been manageable, and the communities (here and at my field) have been supportive and amazingly helpful.

My only real gripe with the J is that climb performance isn’t that great. Where you are, I’d bet that cruising over 10k feet will be super common, and over 15k might even be often enough that you’ll want the performance of a turbo even if you don’t want a turbo for other reasons. 

That said, I can do 150 true at 14k on under 9GPH, and I carry 64gallons. That’s pretty solidly good range. And everybody says that your pax and bladders will want shorter flights, but you never know. I’ve done a handful of 5 hour flights, and while we’ve planned a pit stop at 3, we look at each other and say I’m good, let’s keep going. My longest nonstop was GXY to LVK. So… I J certainly can work in your area, but even where I am, at sea level, there are plenty of times I wish I had a turbo (or similar ability to get into the upper teens) because going anywhere usually means going over mountains.

All that said, If I were in your shoes and doing it again, I’d probably look for:

• An Eagle that has all the power/prop STCs: the ones I’ve seen had impressive useful load and range. 
• An RV-10 (then install A/C).
• A TN’d Mooney 

[Danb]

The big problem with the turbo Mooneys is you won’t want to go non turbocharged again. It took me a year to want to keep my Acclaim over the Bravo don’t want to go back. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

The big problem with the turbo Mooneys is you won’t want to go non turbocharged again. It took me a year to want to keep my Acclaim over the Bravo don’t want to go back. 

But they're both turbocharged! Doesn't the Acclaim have TWO turbos???

[LANCECASPER]

18 hours ago, Pinecone said:

My 252/Encore is 1119 useful (no TKS) and burns 10.1 GPH at 175 KTAS in the upper teens.
 

Not that I'm a huge fan of re-weighing an airplane and losing useful load with the stroke of a pen, but I would be surprised if the scales confirmed 1119. 
On my Encore that I had (before adding TKS) after the gross weight increase, and the JPI monitor I was at 982. The fiberglass interior adds a few pounds and of course this included an engine driven vacuum pump and a back-up. Removing the vacuum system may have brought me closer to 1000. I don't see where removing the King Package and replacing it would have got me more than 30 or 40, but maybe. I didn't have LR tanks like you do, which I would have liked.
 
 

[Danb]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

But they're both turbocharged! Doesn't the Acclaim have TWO turbos???

Yes it does on takeoff it sets you back in your seat, the Bravo didn’t I guess that’s the extra turbo. I don’t have the 310 HP upgrade but it still climbs like a homesick angel 

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, Danb said:

The big problem with the turbo Mooneys is you won’t want to go non turbocharged again. It took me a year to want to keep my Acclaim over the Bravo don’t want to go back. 

Yeap.

Notice, those without turbo say non-turbo is fine.  

And those with turbo say they would not buy a non-turbo.

It is VERy seldom bumpy at 15 - 17K

 

[KLRDMD]

21 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Tell passengers that all air has bumps, and make sure seat belts are tight.  Then, keep climbing until it's smooth as glass and "air conditioned".

Some of the worst turbulence I have ever experienced was in my Mooney Bravo, ABQ-Tucson at 16,500 ft. Higher would have required an IFR flight plan and added a fair bit amount of time to my flight. Also, consider when it is 115ºF (46ºC) on the ground here in Tucson, it doesn't get to an "air-conditioned" temperature of 72ºF (22ºC) until you're cruising along at about 15,000 ft.

[Fly Boomer]

50 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Some of the worst turbulence I have ever experienced was in my Mooney Bravo, ABQ-Tucson at 16,500 ft. Higher would have required an IFR flight plan and added a fair bit amount of time to my flight. Also, consider when it is 115ºF (46ºC) on the ground here in Tucson, it doesn't get to an "air-conditioned" temperature of 72ºF (22ºC) until you're cruising along at about 15,000 ft.

It happens.  I should have said usually it's smooth as glass at 16,500 or 17,500.  My airplane will get over the bumps but, like you, there is a limit to how high I am prepared to go on any given trip.

[Steve Dawson]

I'd consider getting your IFR rating first and gather some good experience before taking kids and wife on a long distance trip. Talking from my bad experience, when other people are involved "get-there-itis" can throw out common sense and rationalization.