Heating plane before starting

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

I meant to reply earlier.

Perked up at the mention of a vest. I actually thought of this recently.  It really was helpful in survival training. Among many other benefits, it provides you a way to carry things if you are forced down. Several examples in the real world involve people needing to move, rather than wait at the plane for the "instant helicopter" that is apparently not as common as imagined even in the 406MHz world. 

Other benefits are: familiar location of all basic equipment, organization, etc. Can work with it on (flashlight, knife, etc, accessible when starting fire, etc). Always have the signal mirror handy when the plane flies overhead. etc. Run out of pockets quickly otherwise. 

I am needing to put together kits over the next few months given a plan to do more flying over wilderness and mountains regularly. Thinking to use something like the above SERE vest as a core, with duffels or something containing sleeping bag, down coat, camp stove, etc. that I can vary by season. Want to keep it simple to load (so it comes with) but do the thinking ahead of time. 

David

 

I don't think Doug is doing and selling vests at this time, but he really is a guru on survival prep.  But his list of what was in his vests is a good starting point for doing your own.

http://www.dougritter.com/dr_essentials_vest_g2.htm

 

 

[shawnd]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:12 AM, Pinecone said:

My hangar is not heated, and I have just a oil sump heater.  Overnight, with an insulated cover (Mac's) I see high 60s under the cowl in the morning.

By the time I taxi, the oil temp is in the green.

Got a link to the Mac insulated cover?

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I don't think Doug is doing and selling vests at this time, but he really is a guru on survival prep.  But his list of what was in his vests is a good starting point for doing your own.

http://www.dougritter.com/dr_essentials_vest_g2.htm

 

 

Thank you! That's definitely in the ballpark of what i was thinking. Also It's great that he puts his lists out there and articulates the rationale. Looks like pretty solid offerings.

I would imagine an attack pilot is pretty tuned into land survival!

 

[shawnd]

5 hours ago, shawnd said:

Got a link to the Mac insulated cover?

Okay answered my own question: https://www.airplane-covers.com/mac/cowling-covers/#MOONEY

Mac's costs roughly $280

Bruce's custom covers also has one for insulated engine cover but they also have prop and spinner cover which is handy: https://aircraftcovers.com/M201

~$500. Guessing justified by  "Insulated Covers Material - A special composite material of solution-dyed polyester, 3M Thinsulate insulation, and soft nylon interior fabric."  Scroll down to your specific model.

 

[Pinecone]

One thing with Mac's, it is not obvious, but they will put in a oil door flap.  I would have liked to have this, but not enough to try to ship it back to them to have it added.

I may see if a local shop can do that.

[Marc_B]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:34 AM, hubcap said:

I use cowl plugs and several of the quilted blankets used by movers.

If you are outside tied down regularly, it's probably best to pony up for an insulated fitted cover.  But those are pricey.

I use the method like hubcap: plugs and moving blanket...and Harbor Freight sells moving blankets that are big and can be folded on itself to right size and they're pretty inexpensive.  I thought about a sleeping bag from goodwill, but was told to make sure you cut off the zipper if you do as it will scratch your cowl up.  Get the big one so you have a "thicker" stack/fold with more loft.  I'm in Colorado where we have winter, but not the frozen tundra weather up north.  With a cellphone switch and an overnight preheat the entire engine compartment is nice and warm.

https://www.harborfreight.com/home/moving/moving-blankets/80-in-x-144-in-extra-large-double-sided-moving-blanket-58062.html

[wombat]

It's interesting how the climate that people live in seems to determine what they consider to be "too cold".

 

My Midwest friends don't do anything special if it's above freezing.

My Northern Midwest friends will preheat if it's below 10F, but still fly.

My California friends will preheat below 60F, and won't even try to fly if it's below 40F because it's too cold and will 'damage' the plane regardless of preheat.

 

Continental's recommendation (for a TSIO-520-BE)  is to preheat for 30+ minutes if the engine has been below 20F for 2+ hours.  But they also have procedures for starting if you do not preheat below 20F.

 

For good engine longevity, follow the manufacturer's recommendations with a little extra leeway. (Don't run quite so hot, don't start it quite so cold.)

For best engine longevity, submerge the engine in oil and never run it.

[MikeOH]

56 minutes ago, wombat said:

My California friends will preheat below 60F, and won't even try to fly if it's below 40F because it's too cold and will 'damage' the plane regardless of preheat.

As a native southern Californian I must beg to differ: at below 40F it is not damage to the plane that I'm worried about...I'm worried about damage to ME, regardless of preheat!  My motto: if you need a sweater, it's too damn cold to go outside

[amillet]

24 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

As a native southern Californian I must beg to differ: at below 40F it is not damage to the plane that I'm worried about...I'm worried about damage to ME, regardless of preheat!  My motto: if you need a sweater, it's too damn cold to go outside

Norwegian phrase. 
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY BAD CLOTHES”

[hubcap]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

It's interesting how the climate that people live in seems to determine what they consider to be "too cold".

 

My Midwest friends don't do anything special if it's above freezing.

My Northern Midwest friends will preheat if it's below 10F, but still fly.

My California friends will preheat below 60F, and won't even try to fly if it's below 40F because it's too cold and will 'damage' the plane regardless of preheat.

 

Continental's recommendation (for a TSIO-520-BE)  is to preheat for 30+ minutes if the engine has been below 20F for 2+ hours.  But they also have procedures for starting if you do not preheat below 20F.

 

For good engine longevity, follow the manufacturer's recommendations with a little extra leeway. (Don't run quite so hot, don't start it quite so cold.)

For best engine longevity, submerge the engine in oil and never run it.

I live in the Kansas City area, and I preheat if it’s going to be below 40 dF. 

[A64Pilot]

If your really into the survival thing, a Di Di Mao bag is possibly useful.

DI Di Mao is Vietnamese for go now or go fast, hurry up or something similar, I wasn’t over there, so I’m not sure the older pilots who were taught me when I was a W1. Anyway you can put small lightweight things hopefully that won’t stick you etc in a survival vest, but anything heavier or bigger you need a bag or similar.

We had large extraordinarily well equipped and packed survival kits in the storage bay, but maybe you couldn't get them for a couple of reasons so the idea of the go now or go fast bag was it was in the cockpit with you and you could grab it in a hurry, and Di Di Mao, AKA run like hell. Civilian flying maybe the things on fire. I had a lot of parachute cord and lots of Power bars in mine, fire starter, space blanket, camp axe, water treatment pills and lots of things but keep it small.

Today going to breakfast it was Fl cold. 32F, as I’m running straight 50W now I turned on the heat in the hangar last night and it kept the hangar and therefore of course the airplane at 60F.

Was it necessary? Probably not but it didn’t hurt.

 

[Pinecone]

3 minutes ago, hubcap said:

I live in the Kansas City area, and I preheat if it’s going to be below 40 dF. 

That is pretty much my rule.

[Jim F]

When I was in a non heated hangar I used a trouble light stuffed up the cowl flap opening and a silver lined bubble wrap cover that i made to cover the engine.  After a flight i would stuff the trouble light( with an incandescent 75watt bulb) up the cowl flap and rest it below the oil sump.  I left it on 100% of the time.  Even when it was <10F in Reno over night I would power up the master and check the engine temp on the JPI.  The engine was always above 50F.

In a pinch once when I got the plane stuck over night below freezing and no pre-heat available on the way into the airport I stopped by a hardware store and picked up an aluminum dryer duct.  I pulled the rental car up close to the plane and connected the dryer duct to the car tail pipe and stuffed the pipe in the cowl flap with the oil door open.  It took about 30 min to get the cylinder temps up and I pulled the prop through to see how she felt.  

Jim

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, amillet said:

Norwegian phrase. 
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY BAD CLOTHES”

I worked for a Marine Lt Col once and he’d go running, hiking, climbing in any weather.  He always said “no bad weather, only bad gear.”  I thought it was a marine thing but now I know where they got it!

[shawnd]

5 hours ago, wombat said:

It's interesting how the climate that people live in seems to determine what they consider to be "too cold".

 

My Midwest friends don't do anything special if it's above freezing.

My Northern Midwest friends will preheat if it's below 10F, but still fly.

My California friends will preheat below 60F, and won't even try to fly if it's below 40F because it's too cold and will 'damage' the plane regardless of preheat.

I am on the west coast but up in PNW. The temps here last couple of weeks has made me start to wonder about heating efficiency inside the hangar. I have a Reiff engine + sump pre-heater but when the temps are dipping down to < 10 DF and with the tendency of the hangars to remain cooler than OAT - it begs to be cautious and do what's needed to keep the heat contained with the engine bay.

[shawnd]

Question about engine heating to the wiser folks here: why shouldn't we pre-heat our engines up to 70 degrees or maybe even higher overnight as long as we are 100% sure we will be flying the next day? I was told one aspect about overall humidity rising within the engine with pre-heating and that it should be ran at normal operating temps for a certain duration to burn it off.  Repeated heating and no-flying is likely detrimental to the engine. But at the least, oil will be more viscous if pre-heated and therefore reducing wear and the closer it is to post startup temps (100 DF?) the better?

Do note, there is no hot air involved in this system which TCM recommends against to avoid damage to hoses, cables etc. And they are suggesting: "Begin preheating of the engine at least 5 hours prior to expected departure. However, do not leave the engine preheating system in operation for more than 24 hours." Source:  http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Continental SIL 03-1 Cold Wx Ops.pdf (section c)

[Skates97]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:24 AM, Pinecone said:

Down to around 10F.  But it should heat to a temperature differential.  So if it is colder, the engine might only be in the 50s, which is still pretty good.

I would put a remote thermometer under the cowl and throw a sleeping bag or comforter over the cowl (Goodwill), and see what you get.  If you need to turn on the furnace, at least the engine will be warmer than ambient.

Agree, even if the differential only gets you into the 50's it is going to be much better than starting from a cold soaked engine. 

[RoundTwo]

Once it hits 50°, my Reiff heater is on, constantly. I use a PID controller set to 100° and the thermocouple lays on top of the block. Oil temps show about 85 and cylinder temps are about the same. As long as the top of the engine stays a constant temp, condensation isn’t a problem. If you heat, don’t fly, and then discontinue the heat, the cold case can be a source of condensation. For insulation on the cowl, I got several freebie comforters from a few neighbors, just by asking. I checked Goodwill, but I never found any. I posted on the neighborhood FB page and almost instantly had 3. I’ll keep it going until we’re past the sweating season this spring.

One big difference I’ve noticed is how consistently and easily the engine starts every time when it’s the same temp as the last time. The fuel atomizes so much better in a warm cylinder.

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, shawnd said:

what's needed to keep the heat contained with the engine bay.

Not much.  You can get a cowl cover that is fitted to your plane, which looks nice.  But the other easier thing is to get some moving blanks or some old quilts and toss them over the cowling to keep the heat from radiating through the top.  As an option, you can get some bungie cords and just wrap up your cowl to keep everything snug. And if you do, the bungie cords DO NOT need to be super tight.  Just to keep the your insulation (aka blankets) around the cowling.  Also keep your cowl plugs in or shove some of the blankets in there so the heat doesn't just come right out. 

Odds are if you leave a thermometer inside the cowl and check it in the morning it will be nice and toasty as your engine warms up and then begins to warm up the air inside of the cowling.

 

[Jim F]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:18 PM, Jim F said:

When I was in a non heated hangar I used a trouble light stuffed up the cowl flap opening and a silver lined bubble wrap cover that i made to cover the engine.  After a flight i would stuff the trouble light( with an incandescent 75watt bulb) up the cowl flap and rest it below the oil sump.  I left it on 100% of the time.  Even when it was <10F in Reno over night I would power up the master and check the engine temp on the JPI.  The engine was always above 50F.

In a pinch once when I got the plane stuck over night below freezing and no pre-heat available on the way into the airport I stopped by a hardware store and picked up an aluminum dryer duct.  I pulled the rental car up close to the plane and connected the dryer duct to the car tail pipe and stuffed the pipe in the cowl flap with the oil door open.  It took about 30 min to get the cylinder temps up and I pulled the prop through to see how she felt.  

Jim

Added a pic of my engine in the morning after a cold night and the cylinders and oil at ~60F

[BDPetersen]

I have a Switcheon to sell, by the way. The joy of hangar wi-fi lets me use a smart outlet with the pad heater and old sleeping blanket insulator. About 3 hours does the trick.

$150 for the Switcheon. Great system.

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, BDPetersen said:

I have a Switcheon to sell, by the way. The joy of hangar wi-fi lets me use a smart outlet with the pad heater and old sleeping blanket insulator. About 3 hours does the trick.

$150 for the Switcheon. Great system.

I’m interested in the switcheon. Can youn DM me with details?

[802flyer]

Another vote for the switcheon if you live somewhere where preheating is a regular thing.

I have the Reiff preheater on one channel and a cabin heater on the other. Turn the engine heat on the afternoon/night before and the cabin heater at least a couple hours beforehand as well. On my most recent dawn departure, outside temps were still around 10F but the oil/cylinders were 60F and the cabin was toasty warm. The avionics seem to appreciate the heat as much as I do.

Even as the temps start to warm up in the spring, the switcheon means I can still preheat without much more than literally lifting a finger. While starting the engine at 40F is arguably not that bad for it, I'm still happier to have the engine at 90F for no other reason than it means sitting around for less time waiting for run-up.

It also improves my impromptu dispatch rate when the weather actually clears enough to fly around here. As long as the temperatures is out of the single digits, I can usually preheat for a couple hours and be warm enough to go fly without having to make a trip to the airport to plug in.

[Z W]

I use a Switcheon also.  Works great.  One plug operates the battery charger, the other the Tanis engine heater.  I keep a set of cowl plugs in it, but no blanket.

If I expect to be flying, I'll turn them on the night before.  If I wake up and decide to go flying, I'll kick them on, and even after just an hour or two, the engine gets warm enough to start easily.  Maybe not ideal but better than nothing.  This is relatively mild Midwest weather.  If it's subzero I usually am not flying, but if I were, I'd turn it on at least 12 hours before.

Plane is in an unheated and uninsulated T-hangar.  Engine heater stays plugged in (but turned off) during the colder months.  The Switcheon also has a built-in thermometer that tells you the air temp in the hangar.  It's always already about 20 dF warmer than outside, which surprised me.

I did have to relocate the Switcheon over by the hangar door with some extension cords to improve reception.  Had a few times where it lost signal and you couldn't turn it on.  Moving it seems to have fixed that problem.

[cbarry]

Moved my previous post to here:  This is a very simple catch, but it may help someone out there.  When doing an oil change today (on a cool day, it’s kind of like watching sap flow out of a maple tree..) I try to do a thorough look at the engine and components.  I noticed two preheat wiring connectors were not completely seated/snapped together.  Preheat is great when the heat is evenly distributed, but it’s best if juice is flowing to all of the heating pads or probes!