Pre-buy on a 231/252

[Jetpilot86]

What are the thoughts of the group of getting a pre-buy inspection done by the same muni service center that is brokering the airplane? Pros and cons.
Thanks in advance. 

[PeteMc]

Contract that says if something is found later that was obviously an existing issue, they are responsible for the repairs.   

[T. Peterson]

Generally speaking, that may not be wise, but the devil is in the details. Much depends on your confidence in the integrity of the service center. Another factor is if you plan on using that service center as your regular maintainer.

 I bought my plane through Jimmy Garrison and accepted the prebuy of his mechanic. I also have my maintenance done at Maxwell Aviation. Don’s son Paul is in partnership with Jimmy, so I was protected on two fronts. 
First, Jimmy and Maxwells both enjoy strong reputations for both integrity and competence. Second, there would be no advantage to glossing over a problem as they are going to have to deal with it anyway as my regular maintainer! To be clear, Maxwell did not do the prebuy. It was done by Jimmy’s mechanic in Spring Branch, but due to Jimmy and Paul’s partnership the principle is the same. They are all good people.

So, having the broker also provide the prebuy worked out for me, but that’s not a guarantee for everyone!

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:07 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

What are the thoughts of the group of getting a pre-buy inspection done by the same muni service center that is brokering the airplane? Pros and cons.
Thanks in advance. 

Is the service center brokering the airplane going to bring to your attention things that might break the deal? You would like to think so, but not likely. It just doesn't work that way.

Buying an airplane is a completely emotional decision, no matter what else you might tell yourself.

You want this to be the one so your search will be over.                                                                                                                 

The seller wants this to be the one so they can move on.                                                                                                               

The broker wants this to be the one so they can get paid.                                                                                                               

If the one doing the pre-buy also wants this to be the one, you aren't getting an un-biased look. They should be the reality check.

A good pre-buy evaluation begins with getting to know a little about the seller, even if it is being sold by a broker. I want to talk to the seller and I will not try to cut the broker out of the deal. Then well before the first panel is removed, the next step is a thorough review of the logbooks by someone who knows what they are doing. Decades ago I didn't even know what to look for, but now since I have bought a lot of airplanes I know exactly what to look for. In years past, believe it or not, I had actually had two different people overnight me the logbooks to look at. They had already "bought" me by trusting me that much. Thankfully now, if they are a serious seller, they have the logs on a .pdf file. If it's a seller direct deal and perhaps they haven't sold an airplane before, I have had them take the logs into Office Depot of FedEx office to get them scanned. In a couple cases since I felt really good about it I flew there to look over the logs and then the airplane. Some pre-buys never make it past the logbooks and those few hours are money well-spent.

If after that you decide to proceed further you don't need to know about $50 or $500 items - that's a waste of time and money. Those items are just part of ownership. You really need the time spent to focus on the big things. You need to know about the $5000 and $50000 items. Do your homework and direct whomever you decide to do the pre-buy in the areas you want him or her to look and then ask, "In addition to those areas, where else should we be looking?". In my opinion, if you're going to pay for an evaluation you need to be there to subtly oversee it, not hovering over them. However, inspect what you expect.

Especially if this is your first airplane purchase you need a dis-interested third party that will point out all of the major good and bad things that they see and not gloss them over. The fact that you are asking the question, "What are the thoughts of the group of getting a pre-buy inspection done by the same muni service center that is brokering the airplane?" should tell you something. That is that little voice telling you that something doesn't seem right about allowing this to happen. The fact is that a reputable shop wouldn't put themselves in that conflict-of-interest situation.

 

Here's a good start on a pre-buy evaluation for the 231/252/Encore:     https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bw80n4omu09pr6iemt17a/M20K-PRE-BUY.pdf?rlkey=va5eojcu5bc9ue7rnwjj7clzi&dl=0

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Is the service center brokering the airplane going to bring to your attention things that might break the deal? You would like to think so, but not likely. It just doesn't work that way.

Buying an airplane is a completely emotional decision, no matter what else you might tell yourself.

You want this to be the one so your search will be over.                                                                                                                 

The seller wants this to be the one so they can move on.                                                                                                               

The broker wants this to be the one so they can get paid.                                                                                                               

If the one doing the pre-buy also wants this to be the one, you aren't getting an un-biased look. They should be the reality check.

A good pre-buy evaluation begins with getting to know a little about the seller, even if it is being sold by a broker. I want to talk to the seller and I will not try to cut the broker out of the deal. Then well before the first panel is removed, the next step is a thorough review of the logbooks by someone who knows what they are doing. Decades ago I didn't even know what to look for, but now since I have bought a lot of airplanes I know exactly what to look for. In years past, believe it or not, I had actually had two different people overnight me the logbooks to look at. They had already "bought" me by trusting me that much. Thankfully now, if they are a serious seller, they have the logs on a .pdf file. If it's a seller direct deal and perhaps they haven't sold an airplane before, I have had them take the logs into Office Depot of FedEx office to get them scanned. In a couple cases since I felt really good about it I flew there to look over the logs and then the airplane. Some pre-buys never make it past the logbooks and those few hours are money well-spent.

If after that you decide to proceed further you don't need to know about $50 or $500 items - that's a waste of time and money. Those items are just part of ownership. You really need the time spent to focus on the big things. You need to know about the $5000 and $50000 items. Do your homework and direct whomever you decide to do the pre-buy in the areas you want him or her to look and then ask, "In addition to those areas, where else should we be looking?". In my opinion, if you're going to pay for an evaluation you need to be there to subtly oversee it, not hovering over them. However, inspect what you expect.

Especially if this is your first airplane purchase you need a dis-interested third party that will point out all of the major good and bad things that they see and not gloss them over.

Outstanding post! This is wisdom and experience talking.

[jetdriven]

Absolutely have the prebuy done by someone who knows these planes well and had no possible conflict.  Your situation is nothing but conflict.  Regardless of  perceived reputation, unless you are getting a warranty on this plane. Take it to a different place.  If the seller won't let it leave, that says s lot right there, too. 

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Then well before the first panel is removed, the next step is a thorough review of the logbooks by someone who knows what they are doing.   Some pre-buys never make it past the logbooks and those few hours are money well-spent.

BT, DT, walked away.

I used @jetdriven here on MS for log reviews.  He also consulted on the prebuy, which resulted in the seller replacing all the lifters (Continental).

[Fritz1]

yes to all, first step is logbook analysis, the pre purchase should be done at least as thorough as an annual, the findings become part of the sales negotiation, if airplane is purchased technician fixes known squaks and signs annual, Maxwell / Garrison have a special relationship, however as a general rule it is better to have your own technician do the pre-purchase and fix and sign off the airplane thereafter, otherwise there is a profound conflict of interest, if an airplane is not purchased after a through pre purchase inspection there is a good reason and the money for the pre purchase is well spent

[Pinecone]

For example, when I was looking for my plane.  These are the ones where things went well enough to place a deposit to hold and start the process.

First one was nice, but failed on log book inspection due to questionable engine.  I made an offer low enough to cover a FRM  engine, but they did not accept.  The plane was still for sale a year later.

Second one, they would not fly it 100 miles for a pre-buy and insisted on the mechanic flying to them to do a pre-buy.  It was not a nice enough plane for that hassle.

Third one was good but seller failed to deliver for pre-buy and backed out of the sale.  Engine was high time, but price reflected this.  Seller said he got hold of some money and was going to overhaul the engine and keep the plane.  This one was back on the market a year later, without an over haul.

Fourth one was the charm.  It was advertised on Monday morning, offer was in by Monday afternoon.  Pre-buy was started the next Tuesday.  And by Saturday I owned an airplane.

[Danb]

First off all planes need a pre buy,as we know. Mine is a 2016 which I’d assume would be good, log book details were minimal,a Canadian plane, tough getting to Maxwell for pre buy but turned into 52k in problems which the previous owner covered. Even if the plane looks great, new paint jobs will do that make certain you get the best independent knowledgeable shop.

[Jetpilot86]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:28 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Is the service center brokering the airplane going to bring to your attention things that might break the deal? You would like to think so, but not likely. It just doesn't work that way.

Buying an airplane is a completely emotional decision, no matter what else you might tell yourself.

You want this to be the one so your search will be over.                                                                                                                 

The seller wants this to be the one so they can move on.                                                                                                               

The broker wants this to be the one so they can get paid.                                                                                                               

If the one doing the pre-buy also wants this to be the one, you aren't getting an un-biased look. They should be the reality check.

A good pre-buy evaluation begins with getting to know a little about the seller, even if it is being sold by a broker. I want to talk to the seller and I will not try to cut the broker out of the deal. Then well before the first panel is removed, the next step is a thorough review of the logbooks by someone who knows what they are doing. Decades ago I didn't even know what to look for, but now since I have bought a lot of airplanes I know exactly what to look for. In years past, believe it or not, I had actually had two different people overnight me the logbooks to look at. They had already "bought" me by trusting me that much. Thankfully now, if they are a serious seller, they have the logs on a .pdf file. If it's a seller direct deal and perhaps they haven't sold an airplane before, I have had them take the logs into Office Depot of FedEx office to get them scanned. In a couple cases since I felt really good about it I flew there to look over the logs and then the airplane. Some pre-buys never make it past the logbooks and those few hours are money well-spent.

If after that you decide to proceed further you don't need to know about $50 or $500 items - that's a waste of time and money. Those items are just part of ownership. You really need the time spent to focus on the big things. You need to know about the $5000 and $50000 items. Do your homework and direct whomever you decide to do the pre-buy in the areas you want him or her to look and then ask, "In addition to those areas, where else should we be looking?". In my opinion, if you're going to pay for an evaluation you need to be there to subtly oversee it, not hovering over them. However, inspect what you expect.

Especially if this is your first airplane purchase you need a dis-interested third party that will point out all of the major good and bad things that they see and not gloss them over. The fact that you are asking the question, "What are the thoughts of the group of getting a pre-buy inspection done by the same muni service center that is brokering the airplane?" should tell you something. That is that little voice telling you that something doesn't seem right about allowing this to happen. The fact is that a reputable shop wouldn't put themselves in that conflict-of-interest situation.

Thanks.  Seem to be getting lucky on this one so far.  I had to find a different one since the subject of this one went under contract as I was writing the OP and wrapping up my due diligence before making an offer.  The replacement will be an M20M, an early A, with the engine fix.  Also happens to come with a maintenance policy from the owner before the seller, which still has life in it.  I'll have a lot of hours left to burn on it after taking possession.  No broker involved, at an MSC now getting the prebuy.  About the only affiliation with the deal, is that I learned the seller had his pre-buy done here also, but the rest of the work he had done closer to home.  As I won't be able to be present for the inspection myself, the rep at the MSC and I took a good look at the plane and logbooks before I left them a check. 

I was curious as to the answer to the question, vs having a "bad" feeling, because I have a co-worker, that owned his own crop-duster service, has purchased a number of planes, is an A&P also and had no issues using the sellers mechanic, especially a bigger shop to do the inspections as he felt their repudiation was on the line to do it right anyway.  However, he's not a Mooney guy so I thought I'd also throw it out to the space. 

Cheers,

[T. Peterson]

46 minutes ago, Jetpilot86 said:

Thanks.  Seem to be getting lucky on this one so far.  I had to find a different one since the subject of this one went under contract as I was writing the OP and wrapping up my due diligence before making an offer.  The replacement will be an M20M, an early A, with the engine fix.  Also happens to come with a maintenance policy from the owner before the seller, which still has life in it.  I'll have a lot of hours left to burn on it after taking possession.  No broker involved, at an MSC now getting the prebuy.  About the only affiliation with the deal, is that I learned the seller had his pre-buy done here also, but the rest of the work he had done closer to home.  As I won't be able to be present for the inspection myself, the rep at the MSC and I took a good look at the plane and logbooks before I left them a check. 

I was curious as to the answer to the question, vs having a "bad" feeling, because I have a co-worker, that owned his own crop-duster service, has purchased a number of planes, is an A&P also and had no issues using the sellers mechanic, especially a bigger shop to do the inspections as he felt their repudiation was on the line to do it right anyway.  However, he's not a Mooney guy so I thought I'd also throw it out to the space. 

Cheers,

Good luck to you! I hope you have a wonderful time with your new to you airplane! I have had my airplane about a year and a half. Typical maintenance issues with an older airplane, but has never missed a dispatch yet. Haven’t been able to do all the trips we planned due to being in the shop from time to time, but overall the plane has been a blessing. Many more opportunities to visit friends and family after Mooney than before Mooney!

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Jetpilot86 said:

.I was curious as to the answer to the question, vs having a "bad" feeling, because I have a co-worker, that owned his own crop-duster service, has purchased a number of planes, is an A&P also and had no issues using the sellers mechanic, especially a bigger shop to do the inspections as he felt their repudiation was on the line to do it right anyway.  However, he's not a Mooney guy so I thought I'd also throw it out to the space. 

If you were buying a crop dusting plane and he wasn’t the Seller I would recommend that you use him.