Rearranging my panel

[bcg]

I'm adding and EDM 930 at annual in a few weeks which is going to eliminate a lot of stuff and really free up some space in my panel.  I'm going to take the opportunity to clean up a bunch of old wiring, much of which I believe is now abandoned, and get new panels cut for both sides to get things more organized.  I've got a single G5 in the plane right now and want to lay this out so that if a 2nd one is added in the future, it's as easy as possible.  I will be adding a GMU 11, GAD 13 with OAT and a GAD 29 so that the GPS 175 and G5 can communicate fully and I can get TAS, Magnetic Heading and wind data easily.

I've cut out cardboard panels and printed out actual size instruments to play with the layout and this is what I've come up with.  Which of these options do you guys like better?  Or, what would you do differently if this was yours?

The Master, Avionics Master, Alternator and Ignition switches will go to the left of the AP and Narco HSI, along with the gear lights and headset jacks.  My AP disconnect is currently on the panel but, I'm going to see if I can move that to the yoke.  The right side will probably get a RAM ball for an iPad mount.  I haven't decided where to locate the ChemTrail switch yet, currently it's down by the gear down lock block, which works OK so I may just leave it where it is.

[ArtVandelay]

First, mark the yoke position. Id recommend putting anything you’ll interact with on the right side of the yoke, because I assume you fly with your left hand.

[Fritz1]

cardboard good idea, I would get rid of the ADF, airspeed, alt and turn and bank should move left and mirror six pack 

[bcg]

17 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

cardboard good idea, I would get rid of the ADF, airspeed, alt and turn and bank should move left and mirror six pack 

You're the 2nd person out of 7 or 8 that has said to put the 6 pack instruments on the left, here's my reasoning for not doing that.  I almost never look at them, all of it is on the G5 and having them on the right will make it a little easier for someone flying right seat.  The cockpit isn't so wide that it's difficult to look over there in the extremely unlikely event that I lose the G5 and I also have AHRS on my iPad from a Sentry.  Everything I have on the left I use frequently during flight.  Right now all my engine instrumentation and the AP are on the right side and I don't like it.

There isn't and ADF, the HSI connects to my Narco MK12D and the Collins connects to the Garmin GPS 175 so I need both of them.

Edited August 9, 2023 by bcg

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, bcg said:

 I also have AHRS on my iPad from a Sentry.

I wouldn't count on that if you lose your primary attitude. A backup attitude on the panel makes me more comfortable. The ipad/sentry ahrs might be ok for a tie breaker to verify if your primary attitude goes.

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

cardboard good idea, I would get rid of the ADF, airspeed, alt and turn and bank should move left and mirror six pack 

Your JPI930 won't display vertically, it has to be mounted horizontally, only the JPI900 will display either way.

[M20F]

I would get another G5 (kill HSI and the King Head) and stick the T&B under the panel.  

[bcg]

I would get another G5 and stick the T&B under the panel.  

That's not an option right now.

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[M20F]

1 minute ago, bcg said:

That's not an option right now.

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Better to save a bit more and do it right then spend a bunch of money for a new panel.  That’s my two cents, not challenging you just providing the opinions you asked for.  
 

[bcg]

Better to save a bit more and do it right then spend a bunch of money for a new panel.  That’s my two cents, not challenging you just providing the opinions you asked for.  
 

I won't be the one to add the 2nd G5, this is all I'm doing to it and it's already more than I'd planned. I'll put 300 more hours on this plane and then I'm going into a 252. I've put 180 on it in the last 12 months so that will be 2, maybe 3 years. All I really wanted was the JPI, the panel is such a mess, both in front and behind, that installing it has become a bigger project out of necessity.

Adding a 2nd G5 really means replacing the NAVCOM to do it correctly, which turns what should be a $3-4k project intp a $10k+ project and I'm not willing to put that into a plane I'm not keeping.

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[M20F]

Just now, bcg said:

. I'll put 300 more hours on this plane and then I'm going into a 252. I've put 180 on it in the last 12 months so that will be 2, maybe 3 years. All I really wanted was the JPI,

Personally if the intent is to sell and move on in 2-3 years I wouldn’t do anything.  You never get money back on upgrades. 

[bcg]

Personally if the intent is to sell and move on in 2-3 years I wouldn’t do anything.  You never get money back on upgrades. 

I've already bought the JPI, it's worth the expense to me to have it for the 2-3 years because it actually gives me additional functionality I don't have right now.

Another G5 and upgraded NAVCOM doesn't really gain me anything functionally. It would make some things easier but, not give me anything I don't already have.

There's a limit to both my CB impulses and my ability to rationalize an expense. In this case, it's between the JPI and the 2nd G5...lol

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[M20F]

1 minute ago, bcg said:

I've already bought the JPI, it's worth the expense to me to have it for the 2-3 years because it actually gives me additional functionality I don't have right now.

Another G5 and upgraded NAVCOM doesn't really gain me anything functionally. It would make some things easier but, not give me anything I don't already have.

There's a limit to both my CB impulses and my ability to rationalize an expense. In this case, it's between the JPI and the 2nd G5...lol

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It gives you perceived functionality.  You flew at least 180 hours without it.  I have a MVP-50 which honestly is pretty cool but I flew for 25yrs without one.  I honestly bought it because I wanted a fuel totalizer and it was neat.  That being said I have 20yrs and 1000hrs in a 320 which has the worst turbos known to man kind.  We got at least 1200hrs out of each of the cylinders using garbage 1960’s Cessna gauges which probably never worked right. 
 
It’s your money, enjoy. 

[EricJ]

10 minutes ago, bcg said:

I won't be the one to add the 2nd G5, this is all I'm doing to it and it's already more than I'd planned. I'll put 300 more hours on this plane and then I'm going into a 252. I've put 180 on it in the last 12 months so that will be 2, maybe 3 years. All I really wanted was the JPI, the panel is such a mess, both in front and behind, that installing it has become a bigger project out of necessity.

If this is the case then I'd suggest that your current plan will significantly diminish the value of your airplane if you plan on selling it when you move up to a 252.   It's like any customization plan that deviates from general practice, e.g., super-custom unusual paint jobs that appeal mainly to the owner, can make it difficult to sell to anyone else.   

Having had two electrical failures since installing G5s, it's very nice to have the air instruments on the left side where they are easily seen and where they are in the expected locations for the typical person.   Even when the G5 continues to operate on its own battery, being able to focus on flying rather than managing time until battery rundown is very valuable.

[Hank]

11 hours ago, bcg said:

The Master, Avionics Master, Alternator and Ignition switches will go to the left of the AP and Narco HSI, along with the gear lights and headset jacks.

Be sure to put the ignition at the bottom of the panel. Many older Mooneys have it at the top, where the other keys hang down and block what's below (often the Turn and Bank, I think).

My 1970 C has the ignition at the bottom, from the factory. 

[bcg]

If this is the case then I'd suggest that your current plan will significantly diminish the value of your airplane if you plan on selling it when you move up to a 252.   It's like any customization plan that deviates from general practice, e.g., super-custom unusual paint jobs that appeal mainly to the owner, can make it difficult to sell to anyone else.   

Having had two electrical failures since installing G5s, it's very nice to have the air instruments on the left side where they are easily seen and where they are in the expected locations for the typical person.   Even when the G5 continues to operate on its own battery, being able to focus on flying rather than managing time until battery rundown is very valuable.

That's a fair point and something to consider, thanks for that input.

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[M20F]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:
Having had two electrical failures since installing G5s, it's very nice to have the air instruments on the left side where they are easily seen and where they are in the expected locations for the typical person.   Even when the G5 continues to operate on its own battery, being able to focus on flying rather than managing time until battery rundown is very valuable.

I am finishing my panel next year adding another GTN650 & GFC500 to center stack, another full bore G5 to the left side, moving MVP-50 left.  The whole right side is getting vacuum six pack.  I love my G5.

2 G5’s, vacuum gauges, plus stand by vacuum ensures when I run out of gas I can track myself all the way into the ground with no issues  

 

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, M20F said:

I would get another G5 (kill HSI and the King Head) and stick the T&B under the panel.  

This is what I was thinking.  But being belt and suspenders type for aviation, I would leave the T&B in the panel, visible, if you keep it for the autopilot.  Why take away one additional attitude source if it is actually installed?

One other thing, sit in the plane and mark the centerline of YOU, the pilot.  In my plane, my centerline is to the right of the yoke centerline.  I want my primary attitude indicator to be centered on ME.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, EricJ said:

Having had two electrical failures since installing G5s, it's very nice to have the air instruments on the left side where they are easily seen and where they are in the expected locations for the typical person.   Even when the G5 continues to operate on its own battery, being able to focus on flying rather than managing time until battery rundown is very valuable.

Since the G-5 battery life is over 4 hours, I don't think managing the remaining time of attitude info is that big of a deal.  How much fuel do you have???

If you put in 275s, it becomes a bigger issue, as they are only 30 minutes of back up battery.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, M20F said:

Personally if the intent is to sell and move on in 2-3 years I wouldn’t do anything.  You never get money back on upgrades. 

I put in a JPI 830 last year, knowing I was going to full Garmin glass in a couple of years (it turns out it wil be sooner), and I am happy I did as it gives me so much more info, and the data logging.

My comment would be, if you are thinking about moving to a 252, just do it.  You will be SO MUCH happier.

[natdm]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Since the G-5 battery life is over 4 hours, I don't think managing the remaining time of attitude info is that big of a deal.  How much fuel do you have???

If you put in 275s, it becomes a bigger issue, as they are only 30 minutes of back up battery.

Pretty sure it's an hour for 275's? https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=Nywk5pUMv60pX0R7WL5979

Stupid question: The 275 is reading data from AHRS in the back, right? Won't those be down in a loss of power? What does the 275 read off of then?

I'm in the same boat, I've got a G500 and the original attitude/altitude/speed, considering removing them all for a 275, but I want to make sure I've got decent backups since I don't even have a second alternator ('79 M20K 231).

Answering my own question: 275 can have it's own internal AHRS.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Since the G-5 battery life is over 4 hours, I don't think managing the remaining time of attitude info is that big of a deal.  How much fuel do you have???

Perhaps maybe "up to" four hours when new and 100% in ideal conditions.    Usually when failures happen you can't count on the best case.   The G5 MM and ICA indicates replacement of the battery when capacity drops below one hour, but if it's been a little while since the last capacity check you may not even have that.

For me it was nice to be able to just turn everything off and save the ship's battery for the transponder, ATC, and dropping the gear when I got home.   Turning off the G5s saved a potential discharge cycle on the G5 backup batteries for some time when they may be needed more.    

[LANCECASPER]

Knowing your plan to move to the 252 in the next 2-3 years, I'd put the JPI930 on your shelf and put it in the 252 when you get it.

There is 40-50 hours of labor that goes into installing a JPI930 plus cutting the panel and moving around the instruments. You will never get that plus the cost of the JPI back in 3 years when you sell it.

The TSIO360MB turbo engine in the 252 would benefit much more than the 4 cyl Lycoming would from the JPI930

[bcg]

Knowing your plan to move to the 252 in the next 2-3 years, I'd put the JPI930 on your shelf and put it in the 252 when you get it.
There is 40-50 hours of labor that goes into installing a JPI930 plus cutting the panel and moving around the instruments. You will never get that plus the cost of the JPI back in 3 years when you sell it.
The TSIO360MB turbo engine in the 252 would benefit much more than the 4 cyl Lycoming would from the JPI930

I'm going to buy a 252 that already has the avionics I want. I'm not doing avionics work again.

I know I won't get it all back, I'm doing the labor myself though and it's worth the cost to me to have the engine management info.

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[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

I'm going to buy a 252 that already has the avionics I want. I'm not doing avionics work again.

Mooney only made 231 of the 252 models. Some were sold with the one alternator set-up, which you want to avoid.  Some have been scrapped, some have been modified into "Rockets", some are in other parts of the world. The good ones hardly ever change hands. 

If you find a good 252 for sale you're doing well, they are very hard to find. The best ones last a few days on the market. If they are on the market awhile you can count either (1) they have a lot of deferred maintenance that has been found in a pre-buy that the owner doesn't want to handle or (2) the way that they are priced factoring in engine time, condition of paint, interior, fuel tanks, panel, etc, etc, doesn't warrant the price asked.

Finding a good one that (1) already has exactly what you want on the panel and (2) is priced right is like finding a needle in a haystack. They do come up once in awhile but you better be ready to jump on it immediately.