Well that fell through.

[gabez]

when I sold my V-tail I made the mistake to fly the plane to an unknown mechanic for a pre-buy. if I ever sell my mooney the buyer will need to fly to my home airport. I have learned a very expensive lesson. 

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Contracts aren’t worth the paper they are written on, because you can sue, what’s that going to cost you?  Then good look being rich airplane owner trying to sue some poor mechanic, then it’s your word against his and he’s a Federally licensed mechanic, what are your “bonafides”? So you hire a pro, more money.

Then how long does this take? months, possibly years? 

Your last statement is the one that’s valid, but sometimes you get bit and they aren’t honest.

In my case I’m well known in S Ga aviation, I knew the sellers IA well etc., I’m sure he vouched for me, and that likely had a lot to do with the handshake deal.

‘So far as getting a Broker to sell it for you, that’s what I did with our boat, because I had zero tolerance for shoppers that just want to go for a free sail and looking at boats is a weekend entertainment for them, most can’t afford one and have no real intent to buy one, but shopping during the weekend they get to live the dream that they could

Contracts are worth far more than the paper they are written on. That is why people use contracts. They are enforceable in a court of law.

If you are dealing with an honest shop who damages your airplane, they will fix it. If you are dealing with a dishonest shop, you need a contract. Same goes for buyers. Contracts are only valuable when the parties involved disagree about something. If both parties are honest, you can usually work things out without lawyers.

This is the world we live in. It's not always convenient, but its the best system available.

I am not going to send a mechanic to some far away hangar to do a pre-buy because someone doesn't want to let their plane out of their sight. If that is a requirement, then I will just pass. I am not criticizing, it's your plane, do as you wish...I am just not interested under those circumstances.

[Pinecone]

The contract is with the buyer.  And that is what the deposit, in escrow covers.

Buyer picks the shop, so they are responsible for the shop's performance.

If the shop damages the plane, the buyer is responsible for making it right or buying the plane.

[Sue Bon]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

The contract is with the buyer.  And that is what the deposit, in escrow covers.

Buyer picks the shop, so they are responsible for the shop's performance.

If the shop damages the plane, the buyer is responsible for making it right or buying the plane.

^^Yes. When I was agonizing over whether to upgrade my Mooney or my panel, I had my eyes on a turbo Mooney for sale here in Switzerland. When I asked my shop about a PPI, they said that they would have to do it in their shop, with their lifts and their maintainers in order to give me what I need as their customer. 

[DCarlton]

16 hours ago, M20Doc said:

So your airplane is for sale only during your Annual?  Or suppose you come to the decision to sell, buyer “A”comes along and you get your maintainer to do an Annal so the buyer can look it over.  The deal dies.  Several months later buyer “B” comes along, so you do another Annual so buyer B can look things over.  How many times would you want to do this Annual and at who’s expense?

Not that complicated.  The plane is usually down for a month for annual anyway.  Offer it for sale a couple of months before the annual and note the date the annual is due.  If a buyer responds quickly, start the annual early.   If not wait a couple of months while it's listed.  Don't start tearing apart the plane for annual until you've gone through all the logs with the potential buyer and discussed all the warts (hopefully face to face).  You've probably got a three month window to make something happen.  It could take a month in SOCAL just to get an appointment for a pre buy.  If it sits too long without selling, regroup and try something more conventional.  Doing it during the annual is a win for everyone.  Heck I've seen brokers do it this way.  

[Sue Bon]

And... I've been meaning to say... I'm sorry that this fell through for you. I hope you find what you're looking for soon. At least from your Avatar it looks like you have a gorgeous motorcycle!

[Yetti]

20 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

What is that process please.?

you can check to see what insulation is in there and if the SB has been done.   The SB was to coat the tubes with epoxy paint.   It would not be the full inspection but gives you an idea.   I would probably do this on the first look and to see if it is walk or make an offer.   Also pull the two panels on the rear most inside section of the wing along with the rear seat and main spar.   You should also see if there has been fuel leaking out the side of the tank and or inside sender.

 

[wombat]

A seller with too many requirements on a plane that they are selling is a huge red flag.   

You can only inspect it in their hangar?   That means they are pretty sure it's going to break if you fly it somewhere.   Time to walk away.

You can only use their A&P?  That means they have pencil-whipped the maintenance.  Time to walk away.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

A seller with too many requirements on a plane that they are selling is a huge red flag.   

You can only inspect it in their hangar?   That means they are pretty sure it's going to break if you fly it somewhere.   Time to walk away.

You can only use their A&P?  That means they have pencil-whipped the maintenance.  Time to walk away.

Not necessarily.  It may just mean they're not in a hurry, not interested in taking any additional risk, not interested in screening an unknown A&P or shop, and not looking for any additional hassle.  Perhaps they're just willing to wait for someone local.  If their sell gets too complicated, maybe they'd rather just hand it over to a broker.  

[wombat]

Could be.   Or maybe they are the selling equivalent of tire kickers... They want a more thorough inspection on someone else's dime, they want their ego stroked by finding that their maintenance was 'perfect', or they can't afford to maintain their baby any longer and their wife is making them sell it, but if they price it way above market for its condition they are 'selling' it but they know they'll never have to let go.   Any way you shake it, it's probably a waste of time.

If they are serious about selling they'll let the plane be flown somewhere else for an inspection by a different A&P.

Some of the comments here have been more like fathers trying to find the right suitor for their daughter.   It's a plane that the seller doesn't even want any more!   Get it gone.

Edited June 30, 2023 by wombat

[Pinecone]

My Mother used to say, all things happen for a reason.

As mentioned, I went through several candidates, including the one that required the PPI be done in their hangar.

But eventually, everything came together, and I got a better airplane than the ones that fell through.

 

[wombat]

10 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Every seller is entitled to set the terms of their sale.  The more restrictive their terms the smaller their pool of potential buyers will be.  It really is that simple, and to blanketly impugn some sort of evil motive on the part of those who do so is just wrong in my opinion.

There are a lot of tire kicking and naively demanding buyers out there, and many perfectly honest sellers just refuse to deal with them.  And if they have a nice plane that is priced right they won’t have to.  

 Taking an aircraft to another airport and having a certified mechanic of the purchaser's choosing look at it is entirely reasonable.  I'm pushing back on those that say it isn't.

 

I want to point out that all of this goes both ways.    It takes at least two people to close a deal. 

Every buyer is entitled to set the terms of their purchase.  The more restrictive their terms, the smaller their pool of potential sellers will be.  It really is that simple, and to go and blanketly impugn some sort of evil motive on the part of those who do so is just wrong in my opinion.

There are a lot of wishey-washey and naively demanding sellers out there, and many perfectly honest buyers just refuse to deal with them.  And if they have a nice budget that is fit right to their aircraft plans, they won't have to.

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

  And if they have a nice plane that is priced right they won’t have to.  

I never even advertised my Maule, word got out it was for sale and I got a fair offer before I even got it advertised.

Pre-buy was done by the Maule factory and I knew them, and well they did build the thing.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

 Taking an aircraft to another airport and having a certified mechanic of the purchaser's choosing look at it is entirely reasonable.  I'm pushing back on those that say it isn't.

I think most understand that it's reasonable, but it can present a lot of risk to a seller, so resisting that risk is also reasonable from the seller's perspective.   Figuring out how to best navigate those conflicting requirements is the tricky part.    The most opportunities will be created if both sides understand the risks of the other and offer some flexibilities toward them.

[Justin Schmidt]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I think most understand that it's reasonable, but it can present a lot of risk to a seller, so resisting that risk is also reasonable from the seller's perspective.   Figuring out how to best navigate those conflicting requirements is the tricky part.    The most opportunities will be created if both sides understand the risks of the other and offer some flexibilities toward them.

There is a risk to the buyer as well, albeit more of a non-tangible risk.  If the buyer believes at first they are dealing with a reasonable honest seller and start the process just to be fought at every turn, the buyer may loose out on another plane ( I am one that thinks it's dumb and dishonest to go after multiple planes as a buyer). As well has loan issues like interest rate.

Many sellers that are wishy washy tend to be those that are being "forced" to sell for one reason or another. The ego driven pilot (that I have talked about in another thread) tends to be the worst, most dishonest, no integrity sellers; bad buyers as well for that matter.

It would be great if we can get back to a time where all had good intentions, honest, have integrity, and over all just decent people.

[EricJ]

42 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said:

It would be great if we can get back to a time where all had good intentions, honest, have integrity, and over all just decent people.

Given that history indicates that such a time has really never existed, I think we're left to continue to manage our risks on our own.  Caveat emptor!  Caveat venditor!

[jaylw314]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:20 AM, Mcstealth said:

Seller decided that he didn't want to bring the plane to Dugosh, offered to have his mechanics open up the plane for inspection in his hangar, but no borescope. Told me to fly Dugosh A/P's to him if I wanted to.

Oh well. I am sure the plane will sell to someone not interested in a full inspection.

Little sad as the bird clicked a lot of boxes.

Life goes on.

David

 

I mean, geez, Dugosh is Dugosh.  When I told my friend who was ferrying the plane that I had the prebuy done there he said that made him feel a lot better   

On 6/29/2023 at 5:22 AM, Sue Bon said:

Yes, you're right. They did the annual at the same time as the avionics upgrade. I neglected to mention that. They found excessive play while swinging the gear.

FWIW in the US, IA's can say the same thing during annual, so that part doesn't sound different

[Mcstealth]

Geez. I havent had this many responses since I asked how to pronounce @carusoam?

Thanks guys. I guess I need to modify my thought processes. It seems my logic is not baseless, but definitely not on the majority side.

I did get quoted by a highly respected Mooney AP to fly himself to the plane and do the inspection. Almost double the cost of the Dugosh 100hr inspection though. I don't know. I've soured on the subject. Need a thicker skin I guess. 

[Austintatious]

Well, this is an interesting thread.... very interesting and a lot of different takes.

I can only speak for myself... but here is how I would expect and aircraft purchase to go.

1. Buyer goes and looks at aircraft and logbooks, decides if they wish to move forward.

2. If on buyers inspection, they still want the aircraft, then a purchase agreement is drafted/signed and earnest money escrow-ed.

3.  The aircraft moved (if needed) to a place for a PPI at cost of buyer.

4.  Any airworthiness issues fixed BY THE SELLER or, the cost to fix said issue taken off the agreed price in the purchase agreement.  (of course there could be deal breakers discovered, at which point the aircraft goes back home at buyers expense.

5.  Deal closes and buyer takes possession of aircraft and logbooks.

 

If I was wanting to purchase an aircraft and the seller had a problem with this... then see ya!  find another moron.

There are of course a lot of considerations to go into the purchase agreement.  but this would be the basic process I would expect as a buyer OR seller.

 

 

 

 

[Austintatious]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

Geez. I havent had this many responses since I asked how to pronounce @carusoam?

Thanks guys. I guess I need to modify my thought processes. It seems my logic is not baseless, but definitely not on the majority side.

I did get quoted by a highly respected Mooney AP to fly himself to the plane and do the inspection. Almost double the cost of the Dugosh 100hr inspection though. I don't know. I've soured on the subject. Need a thicker skin I guess. 

I highly recommend you contact Savvy aviation and buy their purchase assistance program... You will even get a big discount on their management plan for a year so you can try that out.   They will save you time and headache and find deal breakers early.

[Justin Schmidt]

5 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

I highly recommend you contact Savvy aviation and buy their purchase assistance program... You will even get a big discount on their management plan for a year so you can try that out.   They will save you time and headache and find deal breakers early.

I did this for the first plane I was looking at...was not impressed by them at all. One of the biggest issues was they tried to get me to use a shop that, after I researched the shop and shop owner myself, ended up being a guy that him and his father that owned another shop was investigated by the FAA and other law enforcement for fraud and other charges. His father spent a good chunk in prison, he spent a little and then started another shop.
I ended up picking another shop myself a bit further away and mostly dealt with that shop myself. Additionally, they didn't really look at the logs that had many red flags. The shop that the plane was taken to did go over things to look for in logs and how to tell if a plane is worth pursuing.

[Austintatious]

1 minute ago, Justin Schmidt said:

I did this for the first plane I was looking at...was not impressed by them at all. One of the biggest issues was they tried to get me to use a shop that, after I researched the shop and shop owner myself, ended up being a guy that him and his father that owned another shop was investigated by the FAA and other law enforcement for fraud and other charges. His father spent a good chunk in prison, he spent a little and then started another shop.
I ended up picking another shop myself a bit further away and mostly dealt with that shop myself. Additionally, they didn't really look at the logs that had many red flags. The shop that the plane was taken to did go over things to look for in logs and how to tell if a plane is worth pursuing.

Wild, when was this?

Savvy spent a lot of time on the phone with me talking about logbooks for a few airplanes I considered.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Austintatious

[Justin Schmidt]

1 minute ago, Austintatious said:

Wild, when was this?

2021

[Justin Schmidt]

I think Savvy is more hype than anything...banking on owners lack of knowledge which can easily be gained. Like a new teen driver to a car. I don't think it is the fact I am an engineer, but when that IA showed me what to look for and explained things, I now find it much easier and less "scary" to go through logs myself and do an inceptive look over the plane.

[wombat]

My experience with Savvy for pre-purchase (April 2023) was somewhere in the middle.  Really valuable in terms of finding a list of shops nearby and doing coordination to find out who could do a prebuy in the schedule I had, which was tight.

They also provided a good plan for the prebuy, although I modified it a bit.

 

I'd say that do a great job of providing a backstop so you can't go too wrong during the process.   If you are already confident in your ability to do the whole purchase on your own, it's not that great of a value.