Going to do some touchups to Birdy.

[McMooney]

Couple thoughts

Is the Tail considered a Flight Control?

Really thinking of applying clear to the whole plane after the touchup, probably make her look really spiffy until she's repainted in a few years.

would def protect the surface

maybe even add a bit of metal flake to hide the patches

 

 

 

[RoundTwo]

22 minutes ago, McMooney said:

Couple thoughts

Is the Tail considered a Flight Control?

Really thinking of applying clear to the whole plane after the touchup, probably make her look really spiffy until she's repainted in a few years.

would def protect the surface

maybe even add a bit of metal flake to hide the patches

 

 

 

Be careful adding weight to the elevator and rudder as it will affect the balance. I have heard stories of inability to balance an elevator after a multi-color paint scheme due to the weight of the additional layers.

[carusoam]

yes and no…
 

What do you mean by tail?

Everything after the tail hinge… is pretty much the tail…

1) it’s it a surface… Y

2) is it attached to a flight control… trim

3) Does it control flight when you move it?  Yes

Looks like it is a surface…

it doesn’t move much…

it moves and controls flight and is attached to the rudder pedals and elevator control…

Do you have the extended rudder, or just a tail cone?

Specific primary flight controls are rudder and elevator…

trim isn’t a primary flight control…

Tough question…

As for adding a clear coat… not done very often… for a few reasons UV resistance, weight… by the time you are done… you have spent a ton of dough…

Talk to your paint guy… we have a couple around here…

Doesn’t sound like a complete idea yet…

how do you add metal flake to a clear coat?

Sorry to add so many more questions…

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Elevators, ailerons, rudder are balanced and must be checked for balance after painting. Details in Service Manual. 

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

yes and no…
 

What do you mean by tail?

Everything after the tail hinge… is pretty much the tail…

1) it’s it a surface… Y

2) is it attached to a flight control… trim

3) Does it control flight when you move it?  Yes

Looks like it is a surface…

it doesn’t move much…

it moves and controls flight and is attached to the rudder pedals and elevator control…

Do you have the extended rudder, or just a tail cone?

Specific primary flight controls are rudder and elevator…

trim isn’t a primary flight control…

Tough question…

As for adding a clear coat… not done very often… for a few reasons UV resistance, weight… by the time you are done… you have spent a ton of dough…

Talk to your paint guy… we have a couple around here…

Doesn’t sound like a complete idea yet…

how do you add metal flake to a clear coat?

Sorry to add so many more questions…

Best regards,

-a-

By tail i mean the moveable tail IGNORING the elevator and rudder.

weight, i'm not sure how concerned to be about and just guessing 8lbs of wet paint,  probably ~4 lbs once it dries.  hmm could probably read the specs to see if a dry weight can be estimated.

you can absolutely Tint a clear coat, usually used for special effect. 

Clearcoat is the UV protection for modern paint, actually it provides most of the protection for your vehicle. 

 

[carusoam]

2 minutes ago, McMooney said:

 

Clearcoat is the UV protection for modern paint, actually it provides most of the protection for your vehicle. 

 

Clear coat is the first layer to fall off in big flakes after it sits outside in the heat and daylight…

Modern automotive paints probably work well for five to ten years in NJ… until the clear coat breaks down…

Dark paints are probably the most susceptible to damage… as the temps rise pretty quickly in the sun.

 

Of course… the paint I’m discussing is for the GMs that sit out in my front yard…. 

If you can… experiment with small areas… get a feel for how well your skills and paint match your expectations….

My M20C’s paint went about 45years getting small areas repaired without looking patchy… no real skill involved.

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

For an interesting paint discussion…

Find the Mooney Anomaly….     @TheMooneyAnomaly
 

and any of the threads covering paint fixing prior to waxing… using the modern ceramic waxes…

Best regards,

-a-

[McMooney]

So red is actually the worse.

Everything weathers if left outside uncared for.  

so my GM, 8 year old Camaro(Gray), looks just as good as the day it rolled off the lot.  the 10 year old jeep which sits outside all the time, not as good but close.

not really that concerned as the plane is hangared literally 99% of the time, its only seen rain 2 or 3 times in the 5 years i've owned it.

really only need the paint to last another 3 to 5 years,   long enough to install long range tanks, speed mods, 8.33 radio

Edited May 17, 2023 by McMooney

[McMooney]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For an interesting paint discussion…

Find the Mooney Anomaly….     @TheMooneyAnomaly
 

and any of the threads covering paint fixing prior to waxing… using the modern ceramic waxes…

Best regards,

-a-

unfortunately, it's way past fixing.  the touchups done to it in the past are now falling off.   strangest thing, the paint where original, is almost perfect.

[McMooney]

Dashboard of the jeep looks like a Shar Pei, darn jeep, they even promised to fix it and didn't.  that and their service has guaranteed i'll never buy another

who would've thought a real leather dashboard left in the sun wouldn't last

Edited May 17, 2023 by McMooney

[carusoam]

Bummer…

Usually, the leading edges take a beating…. Head on impact with rain and snow have a tendency to sand blast the paint…

The Camaro looks great… my ‘95 Firebird Formula has been shedding paint for decades… Black under a clear coat…

The first place to lose paint was the metal headlight covers…. Then the top surfaces of everything else….  

Keeping shaded… things last forever.

For large surface areas… people have stripped and painted seam line to seam line…. With pretty good success…

Leading edges often get a black line painted on them… to create a seam line… where it is expected to be seen…

otherwise you may end up with nice patches that are obvious to the untrained eye…

Hence the discussion on clear coats… how well do they hide the added seam lines…

Also be on the look out for painting strategies to avoid seam lines… or at least minimize them…

Matching paint colors has been covered around here a few times…

Best regards,

-a- 

[vik]

Anyone here have a degree in Chemistry and can weight on relatively new ceramic and graphene coatings? The coating should be a mono-molecular layer, so no affect on balance of the control surfaces.

I met with Konstantin Novoselov more than 10 years ago when he came to UCLA and had a chance to talk a bit about graphene between the beers and sushi  So, I have a vague idea about graphene properties, but I have serious doubt that simply diluting it in something and then spreading on the surface with a sponge will form that atomic layer hexagonal nanostructure needed. All those graphene coating products smell like a snake oil to me.

As for the ceramic coatings, I have no information besides ads from the manufacturers. Some companies claim they can restore the gloss of a badly oxidated paint and provide 5 year protection for a fraction of the cost of repainting. Anybody tried?

If this works, it would be better than a coat of clear as one does not have to worry about rebalancing the control surfaces.

Vik

[Greg Ellis]

7 hours ago, vik said:

Anyone here have a degree in Chemistry and can weight on relatively new ceramic and graphene coatings? The coating should be a mono-molecular layer, so no affect on balance of the control surfaces.

I met with Konstantin Novoselov more than 10 years ago when he came to UCLA and had a chance to talk a bit about graphene between the beers and sushi  So, I have a vague idea about graphene properties, but I have serious doubt that simply diluting it in something and then spreading on the surface with a sponge will form that atomic layer hexagonal nanostructure needed. All those graphene coating products smell like a snake oil to me.

As for the ceramic coatings, I have no information besides ads from the manufacturers. Some companies claim they can restore the gloss of a badly oxidated paint and provide 5 year protection for a fraction of the cost of repainting. Anybody tried?

If this works, it would be better than a coat of clear as one does not have to worry about rebalancing the control surfaces.

Vik

This guy does a lot of aircraft detailing and he uses ceramic coating.  He does not really get into the chemistry of it but he does show some great results.  

Search Youtube for Aviana Aircraft Detailing.

[ilovecornfields]

9 hours ago, vik said:

Anyone here have a degree in Chemistry and can weight on relatively new ceramic and graphene coatings? The coating should be a mono-molecular layer, so no affect on balance of the control surfaces.

I met with Konstantin Novoselov more than 10 years ago when he came to UCLA and had a chance to talk a bit about graphene between the beers and sushi  So, I have a vague idea about graphene properties, but I have serious doubt that simply diluting it in something and then spreading on the surface with a sponge will form that atomic layer hexagonal nanostructure needed. All those graphene coating products smell like a snake oil to me.

As for the ceramic coatings, I have no information besides ads from the manufacturers. Some companies claim they can restore the gloss of a badly oxidated paint and provide 5 year protection for a fraction of the cost of repainting. Anybody tried?

If this works, it would be better than a coat of clear as one does not have to worry about rebalancing the control surfaces.

Vik

I have a degree in chemistry and have had beers and sushi in Westwood multiple times. I have no idea what you’re talking about or whether or not these coating would allow you to not rebalance the control surfaces.

I think the answer you’re looking for is going to come from an aircraft detailer, not a chemist.

[vik]

8 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I have a degree in chemistry and have had beers and sushi in Westwood multiple times. I have no idea what you’re talking about or whether or not these coating would allow you to not rebalance the control surfaces.

I think the answer you’re looking for is going to come from an aircraft detailer, not a chemist.

The idea is that the weight of the single atomic layer of the above mentioned coatings is much less than the dust accumulated naturally on airplane surfaces, including the control surfaces. Orders of magnitude less. If you do not have to rebalance the control surfaces between the washes, you do not have to worry about it with the above mentioned coatings.

So, the question is: do those coatings really work as advertised or I'd better stick to the old fashioned polish and wax approach? To answer that question one probably has to have an electronic microscope and some knowledge about the material structure.

 

[Kelpro999]

well… before painting my C it had more than one repaint job’s. Scratch n shoot over whatever. Stripping looked like corn chips and it flew fine for years before me. I even added some foo foo cans on top of that to slow some corrosion spots and it still flew fine. So I would think that if you’re on a single job you could 600 the entire top surface (staying off rivet heads) and follow with same color base then clear. Blend top to bottom and polish bottom. All that without adding much weight. Most of the paint weight is combined overspray and evaporation, only a portion of our money is left to enjoy. So I’m one vote for Go for it 

[ilovecornfields]

5 hours ago, vik said:

The idea is that the weight of the single atomic layer of the above mentioned coatings is much less than the dust accumulated naturally on airplane surfaces, including the control surfaces. Orders of magnitude less. If you do not have to rebalance the control surfaces between the washes, you do not have to worry about it with the above mentioned coatings.

So, the question is: do those coatings really work as advertised or I'd better stick to the old fashioned polish and wax approach? To answer that question one probably has to have an electronic microscope and some knowledge about the material structure.

 

I have neither, but it’s hard to imagine that a single atomic layer of anything is going to make a significant difference. 

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, Kelpro999 said:

well… before painting my C it had more than one repaint job’s. Scratch n shoot over whatever. Stripping looked like corn chips and it flew fine for years before me. I even added some foo foo cans on top of that to slow some corrosion spots and it still flew fine. So I would think that if you’re on a single job you could 600 the entire top surface (staying off rivet heads) and follow with same color base then clear. Blend top to bottom and polish bottom. All that without adding much weight. Most of the paint weight is combined overspray and evaporation, only a portion of our money is left to enjoy. So I’m one vote for Go for it 

this is pretty much what i'm planning, scotchbrite, blast, sand off failing paint, prime/seal, then hit with the white base.  

update, I may have a place where it's safe to bring in real paint equip, might get to spray the whole wing.

found a new sexy dark green at the paint store, so now trying to research how to paint lines

[Kelpro999]

14 hours ago, McMooney said:

update, I may have a place where it's safe to bring in real paint equip, might get to spray the whole wing.

found a new sexy dark green at the paint store, so now trying to research how to paint lines

As in complete strip and refinish? It does require some dismantling for that type of finishing.

youtube is a good asset for color taping if you’ve never done it. I’ve been immersed in electro plating and powder coating because of it with satisfying results. Enjoy 

[McMooney]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:39 PM, McMooney said:

this is pretty much what i'm planning, scotchbrite, blast, sand off failing paint, prime/seal, then hit with the white base.  

update, I may have a place where it's safe to bring in real paint equip, might get to spray the whole wing.

found a new sexy dark green at the paint store, so now trying to research how to paint lines

OK another dumb question, are Flaps considered flight Controls ?

[MB65E]

48 minutes ago, McMooney said:

OK another dumb question, are Flaps considered flight Controls ?

No

-Matt

Edited May 30, 2023 by MB65E

[MB65E]

47 minutes ago, McMooney said:

OK another dumb question, are Flaps considered flight Controls ?

They are a lifting device. 
-Matt

[Pinecone]

The ceramic coatings are basically a super duper wax.  So no more need to balance that after waxing.