e-bikes anyone?

[Skates97]

We have two Citizen e-bikes that we like. They fit, one in the baggage and one in the back seat. We also have the bags that they go in which I recommend. Here's a trip to Santa Paula when we tried them out taking them in the plane for the first time. 

https://intothesky.com/2022/07/10/july-4th-santa-paula-breakfast-and-a-bike-ride/

[aviatoreb]

19 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I think we are talking different cyclist, I’m talking about what I think the average Mooneyspace person is, which I think is an older US male, who as they are Americans are probably over weight as well as being older. I doubt there are many Cat 2 or higher cyclist, and surely those that are wouldn’t be caught dead on an E-bike.

Not Cat 2 racers, not even close, average US person may have ridden a bicycle as a kid, but hasn’t as an adult, much less participated in Time Trials, probably doesn’t even know what one is.

Those people are I believe doing good to maintain 250 W.

1 HP is 748 W from memory so producing 1/3 of the power of a horse from your legs ain’t bad at all for an older overweight beginning cyclist in my opinion.

If it wasn’t for my age and infirmities with the knees, I wouldn’t consider an E bike myself, I doubt any serious cyclist would, even has been ones.

 

You showed the legs of Robert Foreston Quadzillz and a 700 watt avg 1 min test and said my son's power meter must be off so I was riffing on that because actual power output of cyclists is something know a good bit about.  And you talked about Eddy Merckx, the greatest of all time.  Also that son of mine is a real sensor geek - more than just a nerd cyclist - he is a phd student at Caltech in aero and he is a real stickler for accurate measurements.  He clams he is measuring to within 1% and calibrates often and I believe him.

Actually typical untrained people would have a hard time maintaining 250w for a long term ride.  If you believe that chart - untrained - 250watts at my weight 100kg and 6'4'' is 2.5watts per kilo.  That then FT is the extreme effort of a highest end but untrained cyclist.  I was maybe 95kg when I was a young gun.  But most people aren't as heavy as me.  

I would say 150watts is more like something normal folk can do.

So 350 watts is a lot for a motor!  Especially if added in to a leisurely pedal assist of 100 to 150 watts.

[Kelpro999]

Lectric XP lite

[A64Pilot]

Helicopter scooter external load and Sun morning neighborhood breakfast crowd that’s moving to scooters.

I think the scooters due to their size are worth considering, a folding bike is bigger, tough to get two in baggage I think and then there is the greasy chain.

The scooters they are all buying are here https://gotrax.com I don’t know which model though 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

You showed the legs of Robert Foreston Quadzillz and a 700 watt avg 1 min test and said my son's power meter must be off so I was riffing on that because actual power output of cyclists is something know a good bit about.  And you talked about Eddy Merckx, the greatest of all time.  Also that son of mine is a real sensor geek - more than just a nerd cyclist - he is a phd student at Caltech in aero and he is a real stickler for accurate measurements.  He clams he is measuring to within 1% and calibrates often and I believe him.

Actually typical untrained people would have a hard time maintaining 250w for a long term ride.  If you believe that chart - untrained - 250watts at my weight 100kg and 6'4'' is 2.5watts per kilo.  That then FT is the extreme effort of a highest end but untrained cyclist.  I was maybe 95kg when I was a young gun.  But most people aren't as heavy as me.  

I would say 150watts is more like something normal folk can do.

So 350 watts is a lot for a motor!  Especially if added in to a leisurely pedal assist of 100 to 150 watts.

That was my point, even though my bike can pull 1500W, it’s not needed, except maybe steep hills?

Wheel hub bikes only have one gear, but mid drive bikes use the existing power train so you can gear down for steep hills, or gear up to go very fast. Once you get to stupid levels of power the gear train is the limit, accelerated wear and you can break a chain.

In Europe the max legal E bike is 250W 

US, the rules get more complex and differ by State, being in Florida my 1500W bike is legal, but the manufacturer includes stickers that claim it 250W  for Europe I assume.

https://quietkat.com/pages/united-states-electric-bike-regulations-guide

I can’t imagine a case where a Cop is going to pull over an E-bike and ticket them though.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

The scooters they are all buying are here https://gotrax.com I don’t know which model though 

Plus, top-of-the-line folding bike is knocking on 70 pounds.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

That was my point, even though my bike can pull 1500W, it’s not needed, except maybe steep hills?

Wheel hub bikes only have one gear, but mid drive bikes use the existing power train so you can gear down for steep hills, or gear up to go very fast. Once you get to stupid levels of power the gear train is the limit, accelerated wear and you can break a chain.

In Europe the max legal E bike is 250W 

US, the rules get more complex and differ by State, being in Florida my 1500W bike is legal, but the manufacturer includes stickers that claim it 250W  for Europe I assume.

https://quietkat.com/pages/united-states-electric-bike-regulations-guide

I can’t imagine a case where a Cop is going to pull over an E-bike and ticket them though.

They had some pretty interesting low power electric car-things in Europe.  I wish I remember the name but there was one tandem seater 5hp electric car that I wish I remember what it was called.  Supposedly capable of 45mph - so fine for in town use.  It was super cheap - 8k or something like that.  But honestly it looked pretty nice.

[Pinecone]

WOW, most of those scooters are as heavy as the folding e-bikes.  I think I would rather have the bike.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/24/2023 at 12:40 AM, Pinecone said:

WOW, most of those scooters are as heavy as the folding e-bikes.  I think I would rather have the bike.

Battery is a big part of it, plus they aren’t small scooters. With electric lightweight usually means low real world range, so be careful with lightweight.

But scooters most often fold into much smaller packages and much easier to fold than bikes, sit down scooters are sort of an in between, but you do look silly on them.

My bike battery is I think 12 lbs, but it’s a 58 V 19.2 AH battery too, about as big as they get. 1KWH battery

The electric drive train is another 12 lbs, so your at 25 lbs or so with wiring, switches etc. just for the electric bits, drop 5 lbs for an average sized battery.

So take that 25 lbs and put it on a bike, but I think the biggest reason E bikes are so heavy is several fold, for some reason people like big fat tires and they with their inexpensive wheel sets are HEAVY then as the bike can easily carry excess weight because it has a motor, there just isn’t as big a concern with weight. Most buyers go for either the small diameter but fat tire folders or bikes what I would call beach cruiser style and they are real heavy.

I’ve not weighed my old Rock Hopper conversion but bet it’s way over 40 lbs, maybe pushing 50.

But the E-bikes have gotten the older crowds out on the bike trails at least in my neck of the woods, and they wouldn’t ride a conventional bike when they were younger, and couldn’t now.

[natdm]

Little late to the game but we were going to grab two Lectric E-bike Lites to stick in the Mooney for flying around and the salesman said he does not suggest it, that the 500w battery shouldn't go in a plane. Fair point, that's a lot of boom. :-(

[A64Pilot]

Most of the time a Lipo gets a thermal runaway when being charged, but sometimes when being discharged, physical damage sometimes sets one off, but for example even that’s very rare for airplane models that are crashed.

Having said that Lipo’s are graded, only buy a pack that is Grade A cells, if it’s unspecified it’s most likely Grade B.

Also only buy packs that are CE or UL rated, CE is essentially the European version of UL, for some reason it seems Europe has led the way in certifying Lipo batteries, UL certified packs do exist, I’ve not seen one though, but do not buy a battery that isn’t either CE or UL certified.

So if you ensure your battery is both Grade A and passes CE, it’s a whole bunch safer than the run of the mill cheap packs used in budget scooters etc.

 

[Pinecone]

CE is not the same as UL.

UL rating requires that the product be submitted for testing by UL.  And it if passes, it gets the rating.

CE is self certification. The manufacturer is saying, yes, it meets the published requirements.  German TUV rating is 3rd party testing, like UL.

FYI, there are other testing labs and standards in the US similar to UL.