Prebuy recommendations/advice

[Trogdor]

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\

What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.

 

 

[redbaron1982]

I can recommend where not to take it: flight level aviation.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\

What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.

 

 

Corrosion corrosion and corrosion.  The three killers of Mooneys!

[redbaron1982]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

Corrosion corrosion and corrosion.  The three killers of Mooneys!

Yes, my advise would be:

Legal part: either have a buy agreement with previous owner that any airworthiness findings in the next x months are going to be covered by him or have a prebuy inspection contract that says that any error or omission by the shop that results in you have to pay to repair an item that was not found in the inspection but was listed in the prebuy inspection checklist is going to be covered by the shop.

Technical part: I don't know much, my experience was with corrosion, so that should be in the checklist. Engine too (oil test, compression, boroscope). Test flight and autopilot I think too. AD compliance.

Also an advice, get the prebuy inspection to be done in a place where so you can be around while the shop is doing it, and be a PITA with the shop doing it to make sure that they check everything and they don't just mark the boxes in the checklist without actually doing the inspection.

[StevenL757]

14 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\

What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.

Unless he pops in shortly and explicitly corrects me, I’d vote for Byron at RPM Aviation in Gaithersburg, MD (KGAI).  Although he has yet to do any work for me personally, he comes very highly-recommended.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Yes, my advise would be:

Legal part: either have a buy agreement with previous owner that any airworthiness findings in the next x months are going to be covered by him or have a prebuy inspection contract that says that any error or omission by the shop that results in you have to pay to repair an item that was not found in the inspection but was listed in the prebuy inspection checklist is going to be covered by the shop.

Technical part: I don't know much, my experience was with corrosion, so that should be in the checklist. Engine too (oil test, compression, boroscope). Test flight and autopilot I think too. AD compliance.

Also an advice, get the prebuy inspection to be done in a place where so you can be around while the shop is doing it, and be a PITA with the shop doing it to make sure that they check everything and they don't just mark the boxes in the checklist without actually doing the inspection.

I seriously doubt any of your ideas would fly with many owners or maintenance providers.  So I do a PPI for someone, point out leaking fuel tanks which the buyer gets repaired, while doing the tank repair the spar is found to have corrosion under some old sealant.  Would you expect the seller to or me to pay for this omission?

While anyone is welcome in my shop to observe or participate, being a PITA would find me showing you the door.

[redbaron1982]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I seriously doubt any of your ideas would fly with many owners or maintenance providers.  So I do a PPI for someone, point out leaking fuel tanks which the buyer gets repaired, while doing the tank repair the spar is found to have corrosion under some old sealant.  Would you expect the seller to or me to pay for this omission?

While anyone is welcome in my shop to observe or participate, being a PITA would find me showing you the door.

Being a PITA is a bit extreme, and I didn't mean to be that annoying, but supervising the inspection I think is a must.

Regarding being financially responsible, isn't there insurance for that? Seriously, if a shop is not financially responsible, then basically they do whatever they want and all is cool? You're pointing out an extreme, I give you a more mundane example: my prebuy didn't find things that were marked in the prebuy checklist as checked and found ok, for instance, interior lights not working, elevator trim switch not working, etc.

How I protect myself from that? You can say "don't use that shop anymore", yeah, that's an option. I think is not enough. Again, shops should be financially responsible for their wrongdoing, from their pocket or through an insurance.

[Utah20Gflyer]

39 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Being a PITA is a bit extreme, and I didn't mean to be that annoying, but supervising the inspection I think is a must.

Regarding being financially responsible, isn't there insurance for that? Seriously, if a shop is not financially responsible, then basically they do whatever they want and all is cool? You're pointing out an extreme, I give you a more mundane example: my prebuy didn't find things that were marked in the prebuy checklist as checked and found ok, for instance, interior lights not working, elevator trim switch not working, etc.

How I protect myself from that? You can say "don't use that shop anymore", yeah, that's an option. I think is not enough. Again, shops should be financially responsible for their wrongdoing, from their pocket or through an insurance.

I think what you need to consider is what a shop would need to charge if they were completely responsible for anything they missed.  Would you pay 25k for a pre buy?   The other issue is even if a shop wanted to take on that type of business they wouldn’t have the actuarial competence to price it correctly.  Insurance companies can do that sort of thing with enough data but I’ve never seen one that had any interest in that type of product. 
 

long story short a pre buy reduces some risk but not much.  Ultimately as the owner you are going to assume the majority of the risk.  

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Yes, my advise would be:

Legal part: either have a buy agreement with previous owner that any airworthiness findings in the next x months are going to be covered by him or have a prebuy inspection contract that says that any error or omission by the shop that results in you have to pay to repair an item that was not found in the inspection but was listed in the prebuy inspection checklist is going to be covered by the shop.

I understand that your advice has been shaped by the pain that you experienced.  However, as an owner, when the day comes that I sell, I will never sign an agreement that obligates me to fix things X months in the future (after the plane is sold and flown and worked on by someone else) that someone else thinks may be an airworthiness issue. Mike Busch and Savvy Aviation have written many times that 2 different IA's may not agree that something is an airworthiness issue.  I would never expose myself to an open ended liability when the plane is gone and no longer in my possession.  Additionally, I no longer will have insurance on the plane to cover any major expense that a new owner might claim to be caused by a hidden or missed airworthiness issue  

The Annual Inspection Trap (avweb.com)

The recent crash of a 252 at Lakeway Airport is a good example. The owner had just purchased the plane. We don’t know why the engine quit and the NTSB probably won’t have a Final out for 2 years. However the repair cost is going to be enormous if the plane isn’t scrapped.  If, for instance, it turns out that the oil hoses to the turbocharger sprung a leak and it could be construed as a hidden split (airworthiness issue) then the former owner, now with no insurance, would be on the hook for the cost of the plane.  Clearly not viable. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[redbaron1982]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I understand that your advice has been shaped by the pain that you experienced.  However, as an owner, when the day comes that I sell, I will never sign an agreement that obligates me to fix things X months in the future (after the plane is sold and flown and worked on by someone else) that someone else thinks may be an airworthiness issue. Mike Busch and Savvy Aviation have written many times that 2 different IA's may not agree that something is an airworthiness issue.  I would never expose myself to an open ended liability when the plane is gone and no longer in my possession.  Additionally, I no longer will have insurance on the plane to cover any major expense that a new owner might claim to be caused by a hidden or missed airworthiness issue  

The Annual Inspection Trap (avweb.com)

The recent crash of a 252 at Lakeway Airport is a good example. The owner had just purchased the plane. We don’t know why the engine quit and the NTSB probably won’t have a Final out for 2 years. However the repair cost is going to be enormous if the plane isn’t scrapped.  If, for instance, it turns out that the oil hoses to the turbocharger sprung a leak and it could be construed as a hidden split (airworthiness issue) then the former owner, now with no insurance, would be on the hook for the cost of the plane.  Clearly not viable. 

I do understand that is not very (or at all) viable for the previous owner to take responsibility.

I understand also that even if a shop doing a prebuy made no mistake, can also be hidden problems.

My question is, how can we protect ourselves against dishonest sellers or shops who basically take the money of a prebuy, do a crappy inspection and then they are not liable for their mistakes?

Maybe the answer is that we cannot protect ourselves and that would render a prebuy more or less useless except you do it with a mechanic that you already know and absolutely trust. And I don't mean trusting the shop's brand but the actual human being that will be doing the prebuy.

[TNIndy]

11 hours ago, Trogdor said:

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\

What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.

 

 

As far as Savvy goes, I think they provide great guidance and services in most areas. I had a terrible experience attempting to use them for a prebuy and finally picked a shop myself. I do use them for other services

[LANCECASPER]

22 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Yes, my advise would be:

Legal part: either have a buy agreement with previous owner that any airworthiness findings in the next x months are going to be covered by him or have a prebuy inspection contract that says that any error or omission by the shop that results in you have to pay to repair an item that was not found in the inspection but was listed in the prebuy inspection checklist is going to be covered by the shop.

Technical part: I don't know much, my experience was with corrosion, so that should be in the checklist. Engine too (oil test, compression, boroscope). Test flight and autopilot I think too. AD compliance.

Also an advice, get the prebuy inspection to be done in a place where so you can be around while the shop is doing it, and be a PITA with the shop doing it to make sure that they check everything and they don't just mark the boxes in the checklist without actually doing the inspection.

We’ve gone around  and around on this before. When you ask for a pre-buy evaluation you are buying time from the shop. It can be done in a number of ways, but the consumer should be clear what they are buying when they buy anything - including time from a shop. If you aren’t going to direct what they look at, you should ask ahead of time to find how how deep that many hours will take you into the airplane and what they will be looking for. By this time I’ve bought enough airplanes to know what all I want them to look at, but I still ask them, “Is there anything else you think that we should be looking at?”. A completely thorough pre-buy evaluation that looks at absolutely everything would take much more time than an annual inspection and very few people would be willing to pay for that. When I buy a house I want the inspector to look for deal-breakers and I make sure those are inspected. The same thing holds true when I buy an airplane. No question, first time buyers have a disadvantage, they’ve never done this before. That’s where just asking the question on Mooneyspace, “what should I have them look for”” will solicit many opinions, and that’s a good start. But there isn’t a Seller in their right mind who would offer an airworthiness guarantee on a used airplane once the deal closes. If that was fair why wouldn’t it be fair for the Seller to come back to the Buyer in 90 days and say that they really should have charged you more for the airplane?

You don’t have to like “Caveat Emptor” (the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.), but that’s ultimately the way it works, so you do have understand and accept it, or just not make any purchase at all. Or on airplane purchases just buy new ones with factory warranties.

[JayMatt]

When you get a pre-buy, make sure you get a second opinion. Pay someone to fly it around maybe but I highly suggest you look at it yourself with them and go over all the problems. 3 people looked at mine because I had surface corrosion. I was well aware I would be painting it when I bought it. I wanted to make dead sure there was no corrosion anywhere else that mattered and there wasn't. If I were to do it all over again I'd go out and look for myself. 

[Jeff Uphoff]

13 hours ago, Trogdor said:

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\

What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.

 

 

It's not East Coast, but it's not a bad flight in a Mooney, either: I've done my two most recent pre-buys with Don Maxwell in Gladewater, Texas and had (knock wood) good outcomes. He found a substantial number of squawks on the Ovation I'm now flying, which the previous owner paid to have fixed.

[SKI]

I think doing your own research on possible know issues with a particular airframe is the best insurance going into a prebuy. We have to do a bunch of book work/studying to get our various licenses and rating for being a pilot. Buying and owning a vintage airplane is no different. Let's face it even a "Newer" plane was still made last century. Having the knowledge and willingness to get your hands dirty crawling all around the plane yourself along with the mechanic during the prebuy will help ensure they look at everything you NEED looked at. Spend a few hours searching "Mooney spar corrosion" and "SB-208" which is an inspection of the steel cage of the fuselage. Those are both expensive and invasive fixes. There's unfortunately a lot of sellers out there that are done with aviation and just want out. Don't have something they neglected become your problem. The best way to avoid that is with your own knowledge about what they might be trying to hide or maybe just haven't checked for or are aware of. It's still always a gamble but your just trying to stack the deck in your favor the best you can.

[Steve0715]

With the OP coming to MS to ask the question gives him a huge advantage.  Hopefully reading the thread puts him in the right attitude to have his Prebuy done with his input and his eyes on attention.  It can’t give him 100% assurance against issues down the road but it is good insurance.

+1 for what SKI said!

[RoundTwo]

2 hours ago, TNIndy said:

As far as Savvy goes, I think they provide great guidance and services in most areas. I had a terrible experience attempting to use them for a prebuy and finally picked a shop myself. I do use them for other services

Ditto on Savvy Prebuy experience. Looking forward to using Savvy MX. 

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

long story short a pre buy reduces some risk but not much.  Ultimately as the owner you are going to assume the majority of the risk.  

That is the ugly truth in two simple sentences.  All potential airplane buyers should sign a document acknowledging that truth before buying anything.  Those who didn't experience post-purchase sadness like to pat themselves on the back, but they were just lucky.  I feel like I did everything in my power to mitigate the risk but, after the airplane was in my hangar, I discovered that I had only scratched the surface.

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

long story short a pre buy reduces some risk but not much.  Ultimately as the owner you are going to assume the majority of the risk.  

I'm on my 19th airplane so I have *some* experience in this area. I can't remember the last time I did a pre-buy inspection of an airplane I was buying. I  would have to guess I've had maybe 3-4 pre-buys done ever.  The first thing I always do is get good-quality photos and electronic copies of the logs. This will eliminate three out of four airplanes from further consideration. The next thing I do, and do extensively is a pre-buy on the seller. If I can trust the seller, I'm pretty much good to go. There's a one-page sales agreement that is very basic and really is just to have something in writing and to make my accountant happy. I don't believe I've ever put a deposit on an airplane or used an escrow service.

If I would recommend this approach to others I would get crucified since everyone knows you must get a proper pre-buy inspection. So I'll just say this is what I do and it has worked well. Carry on with your pre-buys.

[Guest]

Ken’s buying/owning experience is brought by the many airplanes he’s owned, and his method works well for him.  I’ve also been around here long enough to remember the many horror stories others have posted.

I believe the older the airframe, the more likely problems exist.  There are few 40-60 year old virgins out there anymore.

[Danb]

Couldn’t agree more Clarence, I’m going through two pre purchase inspections now, one selling one buying. The PPI on my Bravo has become ridiculous, as far as a light dimmer  switch being an airworthy item, I guess it is. Be careful signing your sales agreement stating you’ll be paying for all airworthy items, it can get expensive. My 2005 Bravo has been kept in near new condition although the PPI has a list ridiculous. My hopefully 2016 Acclaim will have few items good for both the seller and myself. If I had to do it again I’d skip the PPI due to the newness of the plane. Consider if the PPI goes well turn it into the annual inspection 

[Pinecone]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:10 PM, StevenL757 said:

Unless he pops in shortly and explicitly corrects me, I’d vote for Byron at RPM Aviation in Gaithersburg, MD (KGAI).  Although he has yet to do any work for me personally, he comes very highly-recommended.

Another vote for Byron.

I used him to qualify aircraft by reviewing logs.  He was not able to do my pre-buy, but he arranged a shop he knew and "supervised" the pre-buy remotely.  He recently did my first annual there were no surprises.

[jkgyr52]

One area not covered by the usual PPI is the function of the avionics in flight. I find it useful to test fly the airplane and verify the avionics is functioning properly.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, jkgyr52 said:

One area not covered by the usual PPI is the function of the avionics in flight. I find it useful to test fly the airplane and verify the avionics is functioning properly.

One of the best suggestions I’ve received was to have the current owner fly the airplane first, with the prospective buyer sitting in the passenger seat.  That accomplishes two things:

1.) the buyer can observe and test the avionics without being distracted by flying the airplane (also much safer this way)

2.) the buyer can also see how the current owner has treated the airplane by observing him/her in action.

After landing, change seats and test fly it yourself.

[Greg Ellis]

3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

One of the best suggestions I’ve received was to have the current owner fly the airplane first, with the prospective buyer sitting in the passenger seat.  That accomplishes two things:

1.) the buyer can observe and test the avionics without being distracted by flying the airplane (also much safer this way)

2.) the buyer can also see how the current owner has treated the airplane by observing him/her in action.

After landing, change seats and test fly it yourself.

I did just this when I purchased my Mooney about 17 years ago.  It went a long way in helping me make my decision.  Although I don't think we changed seats because the 63 C model has brakes on the pilot side only and he wanted that control, as well as the fact I had never flown a Mooney before.