Manual gear or electric

[dmc]

OK, Im really starting to look for a F model and wondering about the Johnson Bar.  I figure I'll take either one,  do those who have tried them both have a preference?  

I'm thinking the Johnson Bar is a simpler mechanisim and probably weighs less.  But the electric is just a flip of a switch and may be easier for my wife, if I can get her to take lessons.  At least as a pinch hitter.

So, if you were looking, witch would you prefer.

 

[Seth]

I LOVED the manual gear in my 1967 F.  Even though I had shoulder problems and ended up getting shoudler surgery (not due to the plane - that's another story) while I owned my F (grounded for a few months), I loved knowing if your gear was up or down, not having to worry about a motor, and just the feel of the system.

The 1983 M20J Missile 300 I now fly has electic gear, and I admit it is much easier to pick up the gear or lower it with the panel switch.  That being said, I sitll reach between the seats when I'm ready to lower the gear as I've trained my body to have the hand there ready to go.  I also have my hand check the floor to make sure it's up and not down on base, and that's when I touch the floor indicator to visually check that the gear is down.  I still do my "green over the fence" talk on final and check the panel indicators.

Both are fine.  The F model is a great value.  It does nearly everything the J does except 10 knots slower.  A modified F with no corrosion, new avionics, updated interior, a modern paint job, and tanks in good shape would be a heck of a bird to purchase.  You'd get good speed, not have to worry about fixing much up, and still have the johnson bar.

Take care,

-Seth

[Hank]

I've never flown a J-bar plane, but I have a few observations culled from various discussions. Operation of both systems have their benefits, quirks and negatives.

From cockpit organization [there's never enough space], I find the area between the seats to be convenient for storing multiple charts on longer flights. A recent trip to E. PA. needed three--one open, the others folded between the seats [VFR: Cinci, DC, New York; IFR: L-26/27, L-29/30; both recommend having the DC TAC for SFRA & P-40 awareness]. Also, I like to stack approach plate books sideways on the floor against the panel. The J-bar does not allow for either option, but may permit keeping a water bottle within reach between and behind the seats. Pay attention to the fuel switch, some put it there, some put it between the pilot's feet.

J-bar operators often mention the benefit of early gear retraction before speed gets very high, often 80 mph or less, as effort required increases with airspeed. Just something to keep in mind; I often have my gear up well below tree-top level anyway.

Then there is passenger perception . . . If the interior is in good shape, they may not notice the manual gear; if the interior is worn and/or dated, the bar may increase apprehension. I have no idea how much swinging the gear may interfere with their personal space--take a test ride with someone and see how their arm moves beside you. Think about your normal passenger type, familiarity with GA, etc.

Just a few comments from a happy electric-gear owner.

[Shadrach]

Hank notes the most important draw back (and the only one as I see it) to manual gear - storage... It's nice to have everything organized between the seats. I know this because I store stuff there in a narrow flight bag while in cruise. However, it must find a new home during take off and landing ops.  I have had passengers ask about the gear and ask why it manual. It's not a hard conversation to have as I am well versed in extolling the virtues of the system. A plane with manual gear will be lighter by ~30lbs IIRC. Having flown planes with both, I'd not trade the J-bar for a switch unless I really had to. The set up Seth mentions would be my ultimate personal XC aircraft. An early J-bar F fully modded windshield, and turbo normalizer system would be about the best and most efficient XC machine on the planet IMHO.

[KSMooniac]

I'm a J owner that wishes I had a J-bar, for the record.  I've flown C/E/F with the bar in the past.  I've had to use my emergency extension once for real after my gear motor died on an approach, and required about $1k total in labor and motor rebuild, but I'll probably be good for another 30 years.  The J-bar is indeed lighter and simpler to maintain, with only the locking socket in the panel as a significant wear item that should probably be replaced every 30 years.  (not expensive)  I place high value on useful load since I have enough to carry four non-obese adults  and some bags on a weekend trip, and the weight savings with the J-bar certainly helps with that aspect.

I hadn't thought about the storage issue, but now that it was mentioned, I agree that using the space on the floor in front of the seats and console is very beneficial.  I put drinks, ipod, tablet, etc. down there frequently.  

Having said all that, J-bar vs. electric when shopping for an F would not be the highest priority for me when comparing different candidates.  General airframe condition, recent use and maintenance history, corrosion, upgrades, installed avionics, fuel tank status, and cosmetics are my main criteria in order of importance.  I wouldn't let the gear system sway me away from a plane that otherwise met all of my other requirements.

[Immelman]

My muscles are more reliable than motors, hydraulics (cessna), gears, etc. I strongly prefer the manual gear.

If you want your wife to move the manual gear... make sure she's in the left seat. It was built to be operated from the left seat. I did get the hang of it, as I went and got my CFI in the right seat of my Mooney, but I had many skinned knucles in the process from trying to unlatch the gear to retract it using the 'wrong' hand.

[DaV8or]

Not much to add to what has been said except, when I was shopping, I had the same questions. I placed an advantage towards the J bar only because of the lower maintenance costs and perhaps higher reliability. However, it was of much lower consideration than other factors, such as avionics, speed mods and condition. On the issue of which gear I ended up letting the chips fall where they may and I now have electric gear. No issues so far. I have decided to be proactive about it though and intend to have LASAR rebuild my actuator and upgrade to the 40:1 gear set at annual this year. It'll cost about $3000 with labor, but I'll be good to go for another 40 years or so and with the new gears it should last a lot longer than the older units. The good news is, of the GA fleet, the Mooney has the simplest gear of all with the best reliability. Which ever way you go, you'll be ahead of your friends with the C, P, B and other brands retractables.

[Ned Gravel]

dmc:

As an E model owner with a J-Bar, I can admit to an obvious bias. I ended up with a Mooney primarily because of a winter incident (groundloop after landing) that totaled the aircraft and the partnership that owned it.  Pipers are not supposed to be flown when the ground temps are colder than -25 deg C.  The nose gear broke something during its retraction and when it came down 90 minutes later it was no longer on my team.  I could not keep the left wing from swiping the snowbank on the left side of the runway (about 4 feet high on that day) and groundlooping (albeit at less than 25 mph).  No one even close to being hurt but scared nonetheless.

That incident made me wish for more robust mechanisms of putting the gear up and down (I wanted a retrac again) and the only contender was a J-Bar Mooney.  The incident also taught me about the difficulties of partnerships (but that is another story).

I also would like more use of the floor between the seats that is taken up by the J-Bar but that is less important to me than the direct mechanical linkage between my right arm and the wheels.  My wife says that my take offs are like watching water fowl launch into the air with their feet tucked away right after take off.  All that does is give one bragging rights.  When to actually bring the gear up has already been debated on MooneySpace and there are some very wise people here with good understanding of when it is prudent to do so. 

But, and this is where I really like my J-Bar, because it is such a simple system, there are other advantages to it. 

1. 
   
2. Dave has already alluded to the extra complexity (and cost - albeit small) of the electric addition to the original Mooney design.  I have none of that.  Pure simplicity.
   
3. Muscle memory actions in your cockpit flows will provide positive reinforcement of both the gear up and gear down activities to doubly support the green and red lights on the panel.  Within a year or so (if you fly it often enough) the gear up/down indications will come as much from that as anything else before you confirm by looking at the lights.  For me, this is a positive means of staying out of the "have landed gear up" column and staying longer in the "will land gear up column."
   
4. Finally, I have the means to exercise the emergency gear extension procedures every time I conduct an approach to landing and I regularly practice it.  In fact, every time I land my Mooney.
   

My opinon.  But I am biased.

[orangemtl]

I prefer newer: Hence by default, electric.

[N33GG]

I have had both, and agree with Hank's comments. In addition to storage between the seats, it takes a little more care with your pax to insure the path of the j-bar is kept clear for operation. With all of that, to me, it is six of one and a half dozen of the other.  I love my manual gear, and sometimes wish I had electric.  When I had electric, I often wished I had manual.  My only reason to direct you toward one or the other, would be if you had, have, or are likely to have any shoulder issues.  In that case, I would definately go for the electric.

[rbridges]

I have the J-bar.  Took a time or two to get used to it, but now it's no big deal.  Hank is right, I have to get the wheels up before speeds hit 80 or so.

The space b/t the seats would be nice.  Once, my dad took his shoes off and it wandered into the floor where the bar needed to latch.  Kinda got me off guard.

[AlexR]

Not too many SB's / SI's against manual gear. That I know of.

[Seth]

I forgot to mention.  The Mooney gear system even in the electric mode is the same system, just powered by a motor instead of your hand and arm.  The simplicity (though it does have to be properly rigged) is what makes it so reliable.  Again, I've flown with both and am confident in both. Make sure you get a well cared for airframe and engine first.  Then panel, upgrades, tanks, and cosmetics.  Then see if the gear is electric or manual.  Unless you have arm or shoulder problems, then just go electric.

I do miss my old Manual Gear - there was something very organic about it.  However, don't get me wrong - I'm loving the Missile!

-Seth

[gregwatts]

I agree with most everything said. I have had both. I prefer electric ......for me........manual gear is too dated.

[PilotDerek]

I have the Johnson bar, but have flown a J with electric as well. I like the Johnson bar, but electric was nice unless it fails then you get a shoulder workout getting the gear down manually. I would say that it would be nice at times to have that space in between the seats available for misc stuff.

[jwilkins]

I've had both, and liked both. My C with the Johnson bar had a very specific airspeed window where it was happy to let the gear up and down. There never was much force required if I had the airspeed right. It was bullet proof, didn't depend on electrics, gears, or no-back springs. 

The next two planes had electric. I haven't had any problems or any expenses related to the electric gear. I REALLY like having the floor clear.

I think it's a toss-up. If I ever had a chance of getting my wife to take lessons I'd lean towards the electric. For me, I like the engineering of the manual gear and prefer the manual just because I think it is elegent engineeering and excellent implementation.

My Johnson bar plane was a '62 C. I have been told, but have no personal experience, that the later planes may have actually required some physical effrot to extend and retract the Johnson bar. On the '62 with the right airspeed it was essentially effortless.

Every time I used the Johnson bar I appreciated the engineering skills and thought process of Al Mooney.

When I use the electric switch on the other planes the gear goes up or down.

Jim

[231Pilot]

I have had them both, much prefer the Johnson Bar.  Much easier to maintain, less expensive, the weak link is the pilot.  Wish it was an option for the J and the K.

[dmc]

Thanks for your opinions.  I figure I would take either, just trying to touch base and see if it was a big deal.  Still looking and learning at this point.

[scottfromiowa]

Manual...

[Shadrach]

Quote: jwilkins

 

My Johnson bar plane was a '62 C. I have been told, but have no personal experience, that the later planes may have actually required some physical effrot to extend and retract the Johnson bar. On the '62 with the right airspeed it was essentially effortless.

Jim

[rbridges]

my mooney has the extra set of wheel fairings, and the guy that sold it to me said it made it harder to close if you wait too long.

[schule]

Like everything in aviation it depends.  On the maintenance side the Johnson Bar may be a bit less expensive, but the gymnastics to put the gear up and down may make passengers nervous.  My wife, sister-in-law, and mother definitely vocalized a preference for the electric gear.  Since my wife is a voting member my current aircraft partnership her opinion on the little details is worth a little extra maintenance cost.

The knowledge of gear up verses down is the same is more or less the same with the only difference in the mechanism which moves the gear, your arm or an electric motor.  On my F like the C, once the little green light is on and the red one is out the gear are equally likely to be down and locked be cause the squat switch changing the lights is the same.  A gear could break off and you could still get a down and locked indication depending on exactly where the failure happened, but that is why we buy a slightly over engineered Mooney and not a soda can.

Both are an excellent choice for different reasons.

-Mark

1967 M20F 

[scottfromiowa]

O.K. I have read a couple of posts that talk about "gymnastics" and physical effort required to retract the gear with the J-Bar.  If you don't know what you are doing...let to much speed build before retraction...it is difficult/impossible to do...so don't do it.  There is "NOT" gymnastics or difficulty in raising the gear with a J bar...period.  If you don't know or have not flown with one don't comment...

With regard to lowering the gear it is a non-event.  You release from floor and gravity swings it down.  Lock it into panel receiver look for light and give it a pull to confirm it's locked.

Storage between seats...O.K. you got me there.  Maintenance?  There are NO issues with motors or actuators or gears.  This has been an ongoing concern for Electric gear.  There is NO maint. training related to emergency gear operation.  It IS a significant potential maintenance expense. 

It is simple.  It works...

Electric vs. Manual: This is a no-brainer if you are buying a vintage Mooney.  J bar is superior in its simplicity of operation and reduced maintenance.  Effort is MINIMAL if you know what you are doing.

[danb35]

Quote: schule

On my F like the C, once the little green light is on and the red one is out the gear are equally likely to be down and locked be cause the squat switch changing the lights is the same.

[1964-M20E]

Manual :-)

Once I learned Mooney’s had manual gear retraction I searched specifically for a Mooney with manual gear.  However I did fly a B model with the manual gear prior to buying my E model.  Retraction the gear was easy right form the start and as mentioned above the gear goes up and down the same way no matter what is going on with the plane.