Buying advise - would this scare you off?

[Tim-37419]

Hi All,

I'm new here and an aspiring Mooniac. I currently fly a RV7A but have a changing mission.

I saw a nicely outfitted and looking J model that I'm looking for some feedback on.

Airframe TT: 4349.8
Hobbs: 1685.4 <- meter was replaced as per logbook entry
Engine TT 7320
SMOH 828.9
Compression: #1 70/80. #2 69/80. #3 76/80. #4 70/80

How does the airframe have less time than the engine? Would that indicate a used engine from another plane was put in? Any other reasons anyone can think of? I have not yet asked for the full logbooks.

Engine TT of 7320 - does that number scare anyone? Yes, I noted SMOH  is 828. Does the block become unserviceable? 

 

 

[1980Mooney]

23 minutes ago, Tim-37419 said:

Hi All,

I'm new here and an aspiring Mooniac. I currently fly a RV7A but have a changing mission.

I saw a nicely outfitted and looking J model that I'm looking for some feedback on.

Airframe TT: 4349.8
Hobbs: 1685.4 <- meter was replaced as per logbook entry
Engine TT 7320
SMOH 828.9
Compression: #1 70/80. #2 69/80. #3 76/80. #4 70/80

How does the airframe have less time than the engine? Would that indicate a used engine from another plane was put in? Any other reasons anyone can think of? I have not yet asked for the full logbooks.

Engine TT of 7320 - does that number scare anyone? Yes, I noted SMOH  is 828. Does the block become unserviceable? 

 

 

Sounds like a typo.. Have you actually looked at the engine logs?

Edited August 2, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Fly Boomer]

23 minutes ago, Tim-37419 said:

I'm new here and an aspiring Mooniac.

First order of business is Welcome!  We'll get to the other stuff in a minute.

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Have you actually looked at the engine logs?

@Tim-37419  best place to start.  Many questions answered, and probably will raise some new ones.

[Tim-37419]

Thanks all. I will request the logbooks.

[anthonydesmet]

Gotta be a typo......usually a pilot fat fingers his personal logbook...not his airframe's......

[Mooney in Oz]

8 hours ago, Tim-37419 said:

Compression: #1 70/80. #2 69/80. #3 76/80. #4 70/80

Compressions of #1, #2 & #4 seem rather low for a Lyc IO-360.

[EricJ]

Overhauls don't zero-time an engine, they just reset TSMOH.   Only the factory can zero-time an engine, so any field overhaul or non-factory overhaul does not reset total time.   An engine that has been overhauled a few times will likely have very high time.

My engine has, iirc, over a thousand hours more than my airframe.   It isn't unusual.

As mentioned, those compression numbers are probably more concerning than engine total time.

[David M20J]

I second @EricJ, its not uncommon to see those hours on an engine even though it was OH, I think its good to know how many hours are on the engine since new, i dont know for sure, but I think the factory OH or faa approved engine shops OH can zero it out (im no SME).  yes there is a point at which it can become unserviceable but if it is well taken care of it can last far longer than expected.  not sure if you are willing to share the tail number but if you do there are a lot of people here who know how to do the right research and give you a lot of good info

[KendrickW715]

If the panel/autopilot setup is what you're looking for, you can always do an engine swap if the compressions keep dropping significantly from annual to annual. 60/80 is too low to fly. That being said, i'd rather have a fresh (new360) engine, and a whatever panel, than an old just about used up engine and my 'dream panel' . . I don't know the size investment you're looking to make, but a new(or OHd) engine may just land in the same price bracket as a major avionics upgrade with a different, lower timed J model. depends on what you need the plane to do for you, and how much of a retrofit you'll want in the long term. But a good pre-buy inspection is a MUST in older Mooney's. Keep lookin around too, I'm sure your right match will show itself before too long. 

go safe,

[Pinecone]

To be a bit pedantic, a factory overhaul would not reset the logs to 0 time.  A factory REBUILD or REMANUFACTURE does.  In fact, with those two, the engine gets a new data pale with a new serial number.  And a brand new logbook, showing 0 hours.

While the factory can delegate the ability to do a reman/rebuild, AFAIK, there are no such shops.  So only the factory.

The quality of a field overhaul can vary greatly.  As can the standards.  It could be overhauled to service limits or new limits.  Cylinders can be overhauled or new cylinders installed.

[Guest]

Remember that the engine total time only reflects the log book and data plate.  During its life and the several overhauls that have happened to it, almost everything and anything may have been replaced with other new or used parts.  If the engine log books are complete they may or may not tell the story.  As long as the engine has had a decent overhaul I wouldn’t worry too much.  Engines don’t scrap airframes, they can be replaced.

The airframe is of far greater concern, corrosion of the tubular structure and wing spar corrosion are airplane killers.  Look for these issues on your PPI.

 

[Tim-37419]

tail number is N1996J

 

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW, on a Lycoming factory reman you can tell all the used parts in the engine because they will have a part number written on them with an electric pen that starts with 85-

Not that there is any way to see them without tearing down the engine. These will mostly be the engine gears.

[Browncbr1]

Depending on how the engine has been operated, simple valve lapping and/or solvent flush could bring the compressions back up.  
 

for what it’s worth, my engine has the original crank and wide deck case.  So, the total time is over 6000, but they were both inspected/serviced at overhaul ~70 hours ago.   Cylinders can be reworked if not too far gone.  New angle valve cylinders have a long back order these days.  
 

in my experience, glass panels and autopilots cost more than engine overhauls.  If the engine is running ok and making good power without making metal, I wouldn’t be scared off.    Just make sure you know what kind of case and lifters it has.   It could be that the previous owner replaced the original engine case simple because they wanted roller tappets when they did the overhaul.   Log books should tell the story.  

[0TreeLemur]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:00 AM, Tim-37419 said:

tail number is N1996J

 

With 36 hours until the end of the auction, bidding on this J is now up to $134,400.  Looks like it might be a decent J.  Might be ok.

Listed on eBay item number:

115478783818

Personally, I'd almost never buy an airplane off eBay.  The long duration of their auctions attracts folks who like to bid early and often.  All that does is raise the floor for when the serious bidding starts.  Logistics: It's out of annual.   You've got 14 days.   How do you get a decent PPI?  In some states getting a ferry permit is a real pain that can take a week.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

With 36 hours until the end of the auction, bidding on this J is now up to $134,400.  Looks like it might be a decent J.  Might be ok.

Listed on eBay item number:

115478783818

Personally, I'd almost never buy an airplane off eBay.  The long duration of their auctions attracts folks who like to bid early and often.  All that does is raise the floor for when the serious bidding starts.  Logistics: It's out of annual.   You've got 14 days.   How do you get a decent PPI?  In some states getting a ferry permit is a real pain that can take a week.

Looks like a nice airplane with the new style factory fiberglass interior which is definitely worth a premium ($15,000 in my opinion). Not sure why anyone would have to sell it on Ebay in this market though.

Looks like they are flying it out of annual, unless that was a ferry permit.  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1996J

 

 

[M20F]

On 8/3/2022 at 5:03 AM, M20Doc said:

Remember that the engine total time only reflects the log book and data plate.  During its life and the several overhauls that have happened to it, almost everything and anything may have been replaced with other new or used parts.  If the engine log books are complete they may or may not tell the story.  As long as the engine has had a decent overhaul I wouldn’t worry too much.  Engines don’t scrap airframes, they can be replaced.

The airframe is of far greater concern, corrosion of the tubular structure and wing spar corrosion are airplane killers.  Look for these issues on your PPI.

 

I would add TBO is a nefarious thing as well.  Prior to my case cracking I did essentially a major but couldn’t write it up as one because I elected to not overhaul the brand new cylinder with 4.5hrs.  So it was just a IRAN because I didn’t do exhaust valves on a new cylinder (requirement for major).  

A couple of years later the case developed a crack and we did the necessary and it got written as a major.  Technically 1500 or so past TBO but not really.  

[sleeper-319]

From the listing: 13,500 feet above sea level, 174 knots (200 MPH) GS burning 7.4 GPH!!! 

They selling me a bridge too? 

[MIm20c]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Looks like they are flying it out of annual, unless that was a ferry permit. 

Flying out of annual for the past 12 hours of flight.  That’s a pretty open ended ferry permit :)

[Marauder]

From the listing: 13,500 feet above sea level, 174 knots (200 MPH) GS burning 7.4 GPH!!! 
They selling me a bridge too? 

And probably some swamp land as well. Those despicable Mooney owners. Hey wait. I’m one of them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Will.iam]

6 hours ago, sleeper-319 said:

From the listing: 13,500 feet above sea level, 174 knots (200 MPH) GS burning 7.4 GPH!!! 

They selling me a bridge too? 

Looks like they took max cruise speed and best endurance fuel flow. Someone didn’t explain to them you can’t pick the best values on multiple charts. You got to stay with one chart all the way through. If that is real world data one of the three values is wrong. 

[ArtVandelay]

Looks like they took max cruise speed and best endurance fuel flow. Someone didn’t explain to them you can’t pick the best values on multiple charts. You got to stay with one chart all the way through. If that is real world data one of the three values is wrong. 

I think that’s called “marketing”.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Looks like they took max cruise speed and best endurance fuel flow. Someone didn’t explain to them you can’t pick the best values on multiple charts. You got to stay with one chart all the way through. If that is real world data one of the three values is wrong. 

Nah, it's groundspeed not TAS. All it takes is favorable winds. I've cruised at 186 knots groundspeed in my C, but I can hardly advertise that as typical.

[Fly Boomer]

53 minutes ago, Hank said:

Nah, it's groundspeed not TAS. All it takes is favorable winds.

There's TAS and then there's IAS.  No, not Indicated Air Speed, I'm talking about Internet Air Speed.