Mooney gear up landing. KCLM

[amillet]

[amillet]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N315KT
 

he circled the airport before landing. May not have been able to lower the gear?

 

[1980Mooney]

17 minutes ago, amillet said:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N315KT
 

he circled the airport before landing. May not have been able to lower the gear?

It looks like it came down just fine in the last pic (after they lifted it). I take the comments in the Facebook post as a confirmation of pilot error. 

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I take the comments in the Facebook post as a confirmation of...

I realize it's all about context, but that strikes me as a very strange thought.

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, amillet said:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N315KT
 

he circled the airport before landing. May not have been able to lower the gear?

 

Not a circle more like a circuit.  Looks like he did a touch and go or go around at low altitude.  Both approaches look fairly normal and final approach speeds in the correct range.  Anyone that subscribes to the notion that "it won't slow down with gear up" is fooling themselves. Especially doing pattern work with the plane on the slow side of its operating range (I don't get much above gear speed doing pattern work). If the plane never gets fast, not much involved in slowing it down.  I wonder if he did a touch and go and just neglected to drop the gear on the second circuit.  Is the gear horn on the Bravo actuated by throttle position just like the vintage birds? 

No one realizes that they can be temporarily desensitized to a gear horn until it happens to them.  It happened to me and I am grateful I caught it on short final. All it took was one perfectly (or imperfectly) timed ATC call while abeam the numbers calling out traffic and telling me to keep speed up for turbine traffic. Flow disrupted...  "Turbine" turned out to be a Piper Meridian. Separation was a non issue. Green controller, slow airport, trying to get in as many calls as possible.

[BobbyH]

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

No one realizes that they can be temporarily desensitized to a gear horn until it happens to them. 

I agree and am working to get my gear warning to go off at the correct MP.  It currently goes off way to early, around 16 to 18 inches MP.   I've read a recent thread about it should be closer to 10" MP which makes much more sense to me.  Too often I'm trying to descend under SEA class B on approach to my airport with the Gear Warning Horn going off.  I just try and ignore it until I can get low enough and slow enough to extend the gear.  I'm almost 35 mph faster than most of the training planes until I can get the gear down, sort of gives our ATC a little challenge to and a few times they are asking me to slow down when still 5 miles out. 

My fear is I ignore the warning and forget the gear.  Better for it to go off when it needs too and not too early.

Bob

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, BobbyH said:

I agree and am working to get my gear warning to go off at the correct MP.  It currently goes off way to early, around 16 to 18 inches MP.   I've read a recent thread about it should be closer to 10" MP which makes much more sense to me.  Too often I'm trying to descend under SEA class B on approach to my airport with the Gear Warning Horn going off.  I just try and ignore it until I can get low enough and slow enough to extend the gear.  I'm almost 35 mph faster than most of the training planes until I can get the gear down, sort of gives our ATC a little challenge to and a few times they are asking me to slow down when still 5 miles out. 

My fear is I ignore the warning and forget the gear.  Better for it to go off when it needs too and not too early.

Bob

That is high.  I think mine goes off ~11".

 

[M20F]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

No one realizes that they can be temporarily desensitized to a gear horn until it happens to them. 

True story.  When we had the Commander guy next to us had a Tbone (for the record it was slightly faster).  He came in one day and balked the landing and went around (whacked the right prop in the process which we found that out later).  
 
Afterwards where I met up with him was in the local watering hole.  He said he didn’t understand why the plane wouldn’t land.  The stall horn was going but he just couldn’t get it to drop and was running out of runway so went around.  It was that moment where it clicked.  We just looked at each other and changed the topic.  He was/is a really solid pilot.  
 
All of these accidents always share one thing in common.  It is the one time you don’t do something you always do and it kills you. 
 
I have seen more great pilots die than poor ones (though seen a few of those as well).  It’s called an “accident” for a reason. 
 
Good luck to all of us. 

[amillet]

19 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It looks like it came down just fine in the last pic (after they lifted it). I take the comments in the Facebook post as a confirmation of pilot error. 

You were right 

[Shadrach]

I wonder if @PT20Jknows the pilot. Looks like their based at Port Townsend.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I wonder if @PT20Jknows the pilot. Looks like their based at Port Townsend.

No, but I notice the airplane is registered to a Spokane WA corporation so maybe @Ragsf15e knows the airplane/pilot.

[Shadrach]

36 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

The Mooney Service Manual for M20C, E, F & G is in the Downloads section here on Mooneyspace.  You and especially your A&P may want to refer to it.

The C-F Service Manual is a bit confusing.  In one place it says 12 inches and in another it says 10 inches.  It doesn't tell you how to adjust it.  However the later J Service Manual does.

From the J Service Manual.   The early M20J (24-0001 - 24-0377) power quadrant was like the F. 

 

I could find no reference to it at all in my MM P/N 104 revised July 1980.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

No, but I notice the airplane is registered to a Spokane WA corporation so maybe @Ragsf15e knows the airplane/pilot.

Interesting.  No, I haven’t seen that airplane around Felts in Spokane, but there is at least 1 or 2 similar long bodies hangared at Spokane International.  I haven’t met the owners.

On another (happier) note, I’ve been to KCLM several times and it’s a great place to use as access to the west side of Olympic National Park and the beautiful beaches out there.  If you need cool in the heat of summer, it’s awesome!

[kortopates]

12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Interesting.  No, I haven’t seen that airplane around Felts in Spokane, but there is at least 1 or 2 similar long bodies hangared at Spokane International.  I haven’t met the owners.

On another (happier) note, I’ve been to KCLM several times and it’s a great place to use as access to the west side of Olympic National Park and the beautiful beaches out there.  If you need cool in the heat of summer, it’s awesome!

I agree, its a great location for many activities including the awesome hiking in Olympic Nat Park, plus its also easy access for a side trip to BC via the nearby Ferry which makes the border crossing easy. And very close to Friday Harbor which can not be missed.

[steingar]

I keep telling you guys T&Gs in a Mooney are bad news. 

[Shadrach]

35 minutes ago, steingar said:

I keep telling you guys T&Gs in a Mooney are bad news. 

His pattern speeds on both circuits were consistent with a normal approach. What causality are you attributing to the fact that a normal approach and gear up landing was preceded by a normal approach and gear down landing?  Would he have been saved had he done a full stop and taxied back for takeoff after the first one? If you don’t like T&Gs, don’t do T&Gs, but this is not a persuasive argument against them for those of us that do.

[steingar]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:37 AM, Shadrach said:

His pattern speeds on both circuits were consistent with a normal approach. What causality are you attributing to the fact that a normal approach and gear up landing was preceded by a normal approach and gear down landing?  Would he have been saved had he done a full stop and taxied back for takeoff after the first one? If you don’t like T&Gs, don’t do T&Gs, but this is not a persuasive argument against them for those of us that do.

This is a really simple one.  Ever thought you had done something but hadn't?  I KNOW I have, it's just a trick of memory and humans are susceptible to it.  You hit the gear switch over and over, it's really easy to think you did when you didn't.  Granted you'll do a GUMPS check if you're doing due diligence, but even that can be accidentally skipped (you think the one you did on the last circuit is the one you did a second ago) or forgotten in distraction.

We humans are distractible animals by nature.  Says me what we do is hard enough, no need to do it harder.  Landing circuits make sense in a trainer, the gear is welded down.  If you forget flaps, prop, whatever else you can still land safely.  I feel a complex aircraft is a different beast, and a poor one for doing landing circuits.  Accidents like this reinforce my conclusions.  I know you're all going to say you've done lots of circuitous T&Gs and never had a problem.  I know another guy who would probably say that.  The dude who geared up his Mooney and started this thread.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

This is a really simple one.  Ever thought you had done something but hadn't?  I KNOW I have, it's just a trick of memory and humans are susceptible to it.  You hit the gear switch over and over, it's really easy to think you did when you didn't.  Granted you'll do a GUMPS check if you're doing due diligence, but even that can be accidentally skipped (you think the one you did on the last circuit is the one you did a second ago) or forgotten in distraction.

We humans are distractible animals by nature.  Says me what we do is hard enough, no need to do it harder.  Landing circuits make sense in a trainer, the gear is welded down.  If you forget flaps, prop, whatever else you can still land safely.  I feel a complex aircraft is a different beast, and a poor one for doing landing circuits.  Accidents like this reinforce my conclusions.  I know you're all going to say you've done lots of circuitous T&Gs and never had a problem.  I know another guy who would probably say that.  The dude who geared up his Mooney and started this thread.

I get your line of thinking. However, susceptibility to the phenomenon you describe applies to flying aircraft in general. It’s the very reason that we develop flows and checklists. An inadvertent gear up is a failure of several processes. There should be redundant processes in place to check for previous failures. When something like this happens, it’s usually the result of multiple distractions coupled with multiple failures. Most of us know when we’ve gotten behind an airplane. Best to play catch up somewhere else than on approach. Yet we carry on...I know I have.

A talkative passenger and a pilot that unwittingly prioritizes something other than process is a bad thing during the approach/landing phase. I’m not being judgmental here. I speak from experience. I have (thankfully) caught my own failures before they reached the the tipping point. Unneeded CTAF calls, tower communications, kids bickering in the backseat can all disrupt process. Good controllers and good passengers know that there are phases of flights when communication should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. It’s the pilots job to recognize when to say “standby” ”unable” or  “STFU”.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am not relaxed in the pattern. I don’t like to be asked where I’m parking when on short final nor given amended departure instructions 200 feet after lift off, but sometimes it’s unavoidable. 

A gear up is something I never want to experience, but I can’t guarantee it won’t happen. I build as much redundancy into my process as I can to avoid it. I once went around at 20agl because sun glare blanked out the gear safe light. I felt like an idiot after but in the whole scheme of things it was the right thing to do.

[Mooneymite]

On 7/14/2022 at 7:51 AM, steingar said:

I keep telling you guys T&Gs in a Mooney are bad news. 

I thought Mooneyspace had finally put this one into perspective once and for all.

If T&G landings are unsafe for you, don't do them.

Please don't preach to those who can accomplish them consistently and safely.  If/when a gear up occurs, it won't be because a T&G made it happen.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Mooneymite

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

This is a really simple one.  Ever thought you had done something but hadn't?  I KNOW I have, it's just a trick of memory and humans are susceptible to it.  You hit the gear switch over and over, it's really easy to think you did when you didn't.  Granted you'll do a GUMPS check if you're doing due diligence, but even that can be accidentally skipped (you think the one you did on the last circuit is the one you did a second ago) or forgotten in distraction.

We humans are distractible animals by nature.  Says me what we do is hard enough, no need to do it harder.  Landing circuits make sense in a trainer, the gear is welded down.  If you forget flaps, prop, whatever else you can still land safely.  I feel a complex aircraft is a different beast, and a poor one for doing landing circuits.  Accidents like this reinforce my conclusions.  I know you're all going to say you've done lots of circuitous T&Gs and never had a problem.  I know another guy who would probably say that.  The dude who geared up his Mooney and started this thread.

It sounds to me like you should own a fixed-gear airplane.

 

[steingar]

Pretty soon I'm not going to own any airplane.

[larrynimmo]

For all of you “T&G” haters….you need to use the LHS…I love it….calls out “check your gear” everytime you approach

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

For all of you “T&G” haters….you need to use the LHS…I love it….calls out “check your gear” everytime you approach

Are you sure you're going to hear that over the sound of the gear warning horn?

[PT20J]

I once heard from a local controller that called a pilot on final to tell him to check gear down. The pilot landed gear up. Later he said he couldn’t hear the radio call over of the gear horn. When fixated, the brain can tune out a lot if stuff.

 

[A64Pilot]

It’s not touch and goes that lead to gear up landings.

It’s landings that lead to gear up.

So, don’t land, and you won’t gear up.

Honestly, there are about only two things that can reasonably cut down on these kinds of things, two rated pilots on board, with both participating in the flight, and or rigid adherence to checklists.

I will admit though that it’s likely some / many won’t perform a before landing checklist on a go-around or touch and go under the idea of “I’ve already done one” which leads us of course to rigid adherence to the checklist, run the checklist EVERY time, I know that’s how we were all taught.