Oh crap the Ukrainian Farmers have expanded their territory and started going after planes.

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Don't we pay companies megabux to build AND test these things?

Oh yes and the Military tests them too, but the enemy has a vote and they can be pretty slick

Think software security, I’m sure Microsoft, Apple whoever tests the stew out of their software, yet there is a never ending series of security updates, because the other guy is pretty slick, they find ways in you didn’t think about.

The more complex and sophisticated the system, the more vulnerable it is. Pretty hard to jam a bullet, but a guided missile is vulnerable 

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

12 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Don't we pay companies megabux to build AND test these things?

If the testing requirements do not reflect actual battle conditions, do not blame the company for meeting the requirements.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

21 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t know anything about that but am not surprised, anything new when put into actual combat you find weaknesses that weren’t thought about, like for instance a TOW missile which was our mainstay for years is easily jammed, but we didn’t know or think about that for a long time.

When we first went down range with the AH-64 we learned all kinds of limitations of the laser that we had never thought of, underspill, overspill, beam divergence, spot jitter, shimmer lots of things the hard way. Until you actually use a weapon system in combat you really don’t know how well it will work, or how an ingenious enemy can defeat it, TOW missile as an example

How do you jam a wire-guided missile?

[Yetti]

24 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t know anything about that but am not surprised, anything new when put into actual combat you find weaknesses that weren’t thought about, like for instance a TOW missile which was our mainstay for years is easily jammed, but we didn’t know or think about that for a long time.

No there was not any scrambling.   Transmissions were in the clear.   I used to know the Russian software they were using.   Here it is Skygrabber.   https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/dec/17/skygrabber-software-drones-hacked

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How do you jam a wire-guided missile?

The TOW works by you holding the crosshairs on the target, the system tracks the missile and steers it to the crosshairs.

The way the system tracks the missile is it has an IR illuminator on the arse end of the missile, if the target has a simple IR strobe the strobe will be much brighter than the missiles illuminator, and the system will lose track of the missile.

But people thought like you, it’s wire guided therefore it can’t be jammed. However that was long ago I feel sure that’s been fixed, if not then I’m likely in trouble

Edited May 5, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, Yetti said:

No there was not any scrambling.   Transmissions were in the clear.   I used to know the Russian software they were using.   Here it is Skygrabber.   https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/dec/17/skygrabber-software-drones-hacked

It's like this war.   It is possible to isolate all of Russia off the internet.   Basically put them in an internet Time out.   are we doing that?  No.   So we really are not serious.   And of course the EU waited till after heating season to stop buying ruskie oil and gas.

[A64Pilot]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

No there was not any scrambling.   Transmissions were in the clear.   I used to know the Russian software they were using.   Here it is Skygrabber.   https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/dec/17/skygrabber-software-drones-hacked

I never said there was for whatever reason they must have thought that signal wasn’t vulnerable or probably just never gave it ant thought.  But sc I know absolutely nothing at all what your talking about I’m just guessing

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The TOW works by you holding the crosshairs on the target, the system tracks the missile and steers it to the crosshairs.

The way the system tracks the missile is it has an IR illuminator on the arse end of the missile, if the target has a simple IR strobe the strobe will be much brighter than the missiles illuminator, and the system will lose track of the missile.

But people thought like you, it’s wire guided therefore it can’t be jammed. However that was long ago I feel sure that’s been fixed, if not then I’m likely in trouble

Perhaps the verbiage has changed since you were in.  That is typically called "decoy".

[A64Pilot]

Then remember for instance I was in the very first AH-64 unit, 3/6 Cav,

None of us had ever shot a Hellfire missile, they cost as much as a nice Mercedes, but we shot many in the simulator, which of course is a simulator, it does as it’s programmed and nobody knew of the limitations until we started shooting them for real and getting a lot more misses than we should have.

But there is huge precedence for this, how well did the torpedoes work in early WWII, why didn’t we know about the failures before the war? because they were too expensive to shoot of course

https://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo-troubles-during-world-war-ii/

Edited May 5, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

11 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Perhaps the verbiage has changed since you were in.  That is typically called "decoy".

Decoy is when you fool the missile into guiding to something other than the intended target, dropping flares to defeat an IR missile is decoying for example as they guide to the flare and not the aircraft, this didn’t decoy it overwhelmed the signal and caused the system to lose track.

But that’s not the point, point was that a simple strobe can defeat a front line missile, and nobody thought about it, until of course it was done.

‘Somebody was pretty slick

Edited May 5, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Yetti]

 

[eman1200]

In the original post I saw somewhere else, it went on to talk about how a FARMER was towing the plane to the airport.
So [mention=11450]Yetti[/mention] took the leap to connect it to the Ukrainian Farmers protecting the airspace above their farms in jest.

aaaaahh. I get it now, thanks.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

If the testing requirements do not reflect actual battle conditions, do not blame the company for meeting the requirements.

Got it.  That makes sense.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The more complex and sophisticated the system, the more vulnerable it is.

The software analogy helps me understand.  If any software design could ever cover "everything" (whatever that means), it would be out of date before you wrote the first line of code.  And, no matter how good your developers and testers are, there are always bugs.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

The software analogy helps me understand.  If any software design could ever cover "everything" (whatever that means), it would be out of date before you wrote the first line of code.  And, no matter how good your developers and testers are, there are always bugs.

Bingo it’s a never ending game of one upmanship, you build a better mousetrap, they build a better mouse.

Thats why it’s not such a terrible thing if the enemy is stealing your technology, by doing so it means they are always at least one step behind you, and what really hurts them is they didn’t develop all the skills, tooling, research etc to get there, so by stealing tech that pretty much guarantees they stay behind. 

It’s also why we can’t stand still, the F-15 is by no way outmatched by anything even today, it’s 40 years old, flown by a bunch of different nations and has shot down 104 enemies, and not one has ever been shot down, zero losses, I don’t think any other airplane has ever been able to boast that.

But we needed to build the F-22 if we wanted to keep ahead, my personal belief is that the manned fighter is as obsolete as the horse, but who knows? I believe manned aircraft will near by to manage fighter UCAV’s but the won’t be single seat fighters.

 

[Mooney Dog]

14 hours ago, Yetti said:

 

 

I legit was there 3 days ago watching them paint that building. Thats wild. 

[RobertGary1]

12 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

While I find it hard to believe that the Russians don’t have and use recovery vehicles, I’m afraid that the Ukraine could fall any time the Russians decide to employ the assets to do so. Why they haven’t is beyond me. Something is going on, my guess is that the soldiers and their leaders aren’t committed.

In the Military you either believe in and employ Blitzkrieg tactics, or you get bogged down in a slowly escalating war as you teach the opposition how to defeat you.

The Russian armored vehicles are the best there is in the mud/sand, they have less ground compaction than US vehicles

Occupying a country long term is infinitely harder than conquering one. 

[Fly Boomer]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Thats why it’s not such a terrible thing if the enemy is stealing your technology, by doing so it means they are always at least one step behind you, and what really hurts them is they didn’t develop all the skills, tooling, research etc to get there, so by stealing tech that pretty much guarantees they stay behind.

I said something similar to a guy I worked for once.  He owned a medical testing lab, and wanted me to do recon at the various conferences I attended.  Not a bad idea by itself, but I told him to concentrate more on moving his own technology forward as quickly as possible, and less on what the other labs were doing.  If we move fast enough, it doesn't make much difference what they are doing.

[A64Pilot]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Occupying a country long term is infinitely harder than conquering one. 

That’s a rather famous quote from Sun Tzu or some other really respected source, I don’t know where though, sounds like it might be from Roman times about Germania maybe?

Edited May 6, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Utah20Gflyer]

Its hard to say exactly what the plans of Russia were but it looks like their military is doing just fine, they just have a different military style than America.  

Initially it looked like they tried an America style shock and awe campaign but then switched to a Russian style offensive.   This may be because long narrow offensives are very vulnerable to American provided weapon systems.  The blunt/wide front currently being employed almost completely negates American weapons as you can't get close enough to the front lines to take out tanks, etc without getting shelled by their artillery.  More recently the Russians are focusing on destroying infrastructure the Ukrainians are using for resupply.   The Russians are grinding down the Ukrainian army and at this point their defeat is certain.  It doesn't matter how many weapons or how much money we send - it won't make a difference.     Ukraine needs to go back to the bargaining table and make a deal before their military collapses and their bargaining position collapses.  

[A64Pilot]

21 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Occupying a country long term is infinitely harder than conquering one. 

I finally remembered, I believe it was Genghis Kahn, I think it was conquering a country is one thing, governing it is another.

I don’t think the Ukraine really has a bargaining position. I’m afraid we will watch them fall as we fear conflict so badly that it will pretty much assure it.

I’m waiting for someone to declare “Peace for our time”

Edited May 7, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Andy95W]

In 1776, nobody thought the American rebels stood a chance against the British Army.

In 1965, nobody thought the Viet Cong stood a chance against the US Army.

In 1980, nobody thought the Afghan insurgents stood a chance against the Soviet Army.

The Ukrainian Army of today is better trained, equipped, and led than the examples above.  The only real question is how long will the conflict last before the Russian Army has lost enough men and equipment to force a withdrawal.  And Ukraine is proving to be a much tougher nut to crack than Chechnya or Syria.

It wasn’t just Ronald Reagan’s StarWars program that killed the Soviet Union- it was the failed war in Afghanistan as well.  

In a war of attrition where a nation’s civilians are willing to kill the invaders, the home team wins.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Andy95W

[A64Pilot]

In your three examples, the willingness of the aggressor wasn’t there, might should have added our recent debacle in Afghanistan as well. If your not willing to do what it takes to win, then you shouldn’t engage.

I think many times the cost to win is excessive, so I’m not saying we should commit atrocities, just that we should determine the cost going in, then decide if it’s worth it.

For instance the US never lost a battle in Vietnam, but it was simply un-winnable with politicians making military decisions.

The Russians in my opinion could walk over the Ukraine Military pretty easy, but as RobertGary pointed out, conquering and ruling are two different things.

The Germans walked over France pretty easily, but never really ruled it.

I’m afraid allowing the Russians to do what they have done sets a precedent, not just for the Russians, but for any one desiring an empire.

Whats the difference between Kuwait and the Ukraine? Two pretty big obvious differences of course come quickly to mind.

Edited May 7, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Yetti]

The cold war was won because we outspent the ruskies.

The ruskies lost another ship.   They lost control of snake island.  Their ships have had to go back out into the black sea so they can't use the guns to shell the shoreline.  Turkey has banned any more ruskie ships from coming in. The T91s are just upgraded T72s and are popping turrets the same.    The intelligence community fear of the ruskie tanks has fueled the industrial complex for decades

Because the Ukraines aren't playing the line up and shoot at each other game.   .   They have a great chance at winning and russia will have no hardware left.    I kind of wonder how relations are restored with the ruskies or are they just out casts for how long.

 

[A64Pilot]

There is a lot of speculation of how the cold war was won.

My speculation is it wasn’t, their economic system collapsed for many reasons, one big one I think is their empire drained them, every puppet state was operated in the red if you will instead of enriching the parent government.

‘We didn’t win anything, they committed suicide.

Edited May 7, 2022 by A64Pilot