Instrument recency

[Ulysse]

I hope these questions not Mooney related are acceptable here.

I am preparing for my instrument rating and I have 2 questions regarding recency:

(for my curiosity) : My prep book states that to act as a PIC under IFR, the pilot must have accomplished 6 approaches+holdings+intercepting/tracking within the 6 preceding months. If this experience is not met, then the same requirements can be met within an extra 6 months with a safety pilot. I cannot find this extra 6 months period mentioned in the FAR.  FAR 61.57 only talks about the first 6 months. Can someone point me to the regulation about this?

Also, I read that the safety pilot does not need to be instrument rated provided the flight is conducted in VMC under VFR and that he has adequate view etc.. Can the same be logged in actual IMC with an instrument rated safety pilot? (in which case, the flight should be IFR. Who is the PIC ?)

 

[skykrawler]

It's under (d) Instrument proficiency check.

Which says if you are "out of currency" for less than six months.  You are out after 6 months without 6.

[201er]

6 hours ago, Ulysse said:

My prep book states that to act as a PIC under IFR, the pilot must have accomplished 6 approaches+holdings+intercepting/tracking within the 6 preceding months. If this experience is not met, then the same requirements can be met within an extra 6 months with a safety pilot. I cannot find this extra 6 months period mentioned in the FAR.  FAR 61.57 only talks about the first 6 months. Can someone point me to the regulation about this?

61.57(d) Instrument proficiency check.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person who has failed to meet the instrument experience requirements of paragraph (c) of this section for more than six calendar months may reestablish instrument currency only by completing an  instrumentproficiency check.

 

6 hours ago, Ulysse said:

Also, I read that the safety pilot does not need to be instrument rated provided the flight is conducted in VMC under VFR and that he has adequate view etc.. Can the same be logged in actual IMC with an instrument rated safety pilot? (in which case, the flight should be IFR. Who is the PIC ?)

 

[201er]

29 minutes ago, JohnZ said:

If the flight is conducted in IMC on an IFR flight plan with 2 instrument rated pilots on board, a safety pilot would not be required for the flight and only the pilot flying would be able to log PIC. If the instrument rated passenger is a CFII giving dual instruction, then both pilots are able to log PIC. 

Usually flights in IMC are not solid IMC the entire time. For portions of the flight where you are flying in VMC, the safety pilot would again be required if the instrument rated pilot wishes to continue to log simulated IMC time. The safety pilot can log PIC while the pilot flying is in simulated conditions. 
 

Hope that’s not too confusing of an answer.

Makes perfect sense to me.

It is also possible for a non instrument rated pilot to log actual instrument time without a view limiting device or safety pilot during VFR in actual instrument conditions. Not likely or recommended, but it is permissible.

Theres definitely times flying IFR in VMC that is in AIC and logs as instrument time.

[Ulysse]

4 hours ago, skykrawler said:

under (d) Instrument proficiency check.

It does not talk about a safety pilot. 

However, I realize now that it says "... For more then 6 months". Thus the 12 months period. 

You not only have to be a good pilot but also good at English language!

[Brian E.]

7 hours ago, Ulysse said:

It does not talk about a safety pilot. 

However, I realize now that it says "... For more then 6 months". Thus the 12 months period. 

You not only have to be a good pilot but also good at English language!

You're right that (d) doesn't talk about a safety pilot.

Section (c)(1) provides for "or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves...: the aforementioned 6 HITS

Now...

FAR 91.113(b) requires that both IFR or VFR flights maintain vigilance by  seeing and avoiding other aircraft.   If the person flying is wearing a view limiting device another qualified pilot must be on board to help see and avoid other aircraft making that qualified pilot a Safety Pilot and is a required crew member.

FAR 91.109(c)(1) requires that the Safety Pilot must hold at least a private pilot certificate with the category and class ratings that are appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

Hopefully that answers all of your questions.  BYW, congrats on working on your Instrument Rating to maximize your K and your safety!

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, Ulysse said:

 

You not only have to be a good pilot but also good at English language!

Have no fear…

Regs aren’t written in plane English…

So… no matter how good your English actually is… you have to learn what each reg really means…

CFIIs get pretty good at this…

It helps to have a really strong memory…

For comparison… the FDA (food drugs) and EPA (environmental) also write regs in a similar fashion… regs are a special language…

 

I missed how this wasn’t Mooney related… 

Mooneys are perfect for Instrument flight, all around the world…

 

If you have an IFR question… Ask it… there are several people around here also working on their IR…

Others enjoy the practice of discussing the FARs….

Some FARs are soooo old… they barely made sense back then… as 201er pointed out above…

 

And we have one MSer who really enjoys knowing the complete history of FARs…  great for when deep insight is needed…

 

After that… we get to learn certain cases… that have defined more meaning to a reg or two…

 

To be an IR pilot… it helps to know English, have a law degree, and fly with other pilots in the system… 
 

Know that it can be even tougher when English is your only language… and you aren’t very good at it… 

 

Keep up the good work…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[DCarlton]

This is the one aspect of flying that's driving me towards selling and getting out for good.  I'm out of currency and it's too damn hard to get it back.  Takes a commitment that I'm having a hard time mustering again.  Don't let your currency lapse.  I'll blame COVID...  

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

This is the one aspect of flying that's driving me towards selling and getting out for good.  I'm out of currency and it's too damn hard to get it back.  Takes a commitment that I'm having a hard time mustering again.  Don't let your currency lapse.  I'll blame COVID...  

Check and see if any nearby agencies or EAA chapters have a ATD you can use to get current during the grace period.  Sometimes that can be a lot easier than coordinating schedules with another pilot, especially if you have to do 3 or more approaches.

[RLCarter]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

This is the one aspect of flying that's driving me towards selling and getting out for good.  I'm out of currency and it's too damn hard to get it back.  Takes a commitment that I'm having a hard time mustering again.  Don't let your currency lapse.  I'll blame COVID...  

I have let my currency lapse, I still act as a safety pilot for a couple guys on the field and I shoot an approach now and then from the right seat just to see if I still can…. Plenty of flying can be done VFR, no need to hang it up just because your not current. I fully understand the time and money commitment to stay proficient which is way more than staying current, plus keeping the aircraft certified for IFR. 

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, JohnZ said:

@DCarlton where are you based? Perhaps there are other pilots in the area who are also trying to maintain currency (and also like lunch). I have befriended a few of the flight instructors at the local flight school and we occasionally fly to a nearby airport and get a few approaches in. Sometimes it might be easier to reestablish currency by knocking out an IPC than doing a full 6 HITS (if you plan an IPC well it doesn’t have to take very long). Just a few ideas! 

This!

Before I moved away, a friend and I had a regular get together. At least once a month, we would fly after work and do some tasks under the hood. Afterward, we would go to dinner. Great friend and currency never an issue. 
 

and yes, an IPC can be quick, but quick requires a certain level of proficiency, so it could take longer if someone is rusty.

[RobertGary1]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:11 PM, Ulysse said:

I hope these questions not Mooney related are acceptable here.

I am preparing for my instrument rating and I have 2 questions regarding recency:

(for my curiosity) : My prep book states that to act as a PIC under IFR, the pilot must have accomplished 6 approaches+holdings+intercepting/tracking within the 6 preceding months. If this experience is not met, then the same requirements can be met within an extra 6 months with a safety pilot. I cannot find this extra 6 months period mentioned in the FAR.  FAR 61.57 only talks about the first 6 months. Can someone point me to the regulation about this?

Also, I read that the safety pilot does not need to be instrument rated provided the flight is conducted in VMC under VFR and that he has adequate view etc.. Can the same be logged in actual IMC with an instrument rated safety pilot? (in which case, the flight should be IFR. Who is the PIC ?)

 

To answer the last question it can be done under actual with an instrument rated pilot who is current. That pilot must be pic if you are not current. But you log the pic as sole manipulator (there is no provision in the far allowing him to log pic only because he’s serving as pic). As a cfii we do this all the time for none current pilots. But it’s nothing special about being a cfii. 

[GeeBee]

Get a Redbird TD2. You'll be more proficient than you ever thought possible and you can do it on your schedule at your leisure.

 

[pirate]

Last year I finally got fed up trying to keep current so at OSH I purchased a Gleim simulator for my home office.

Now keeping proficient is much easier and I always feel much sharper in the plane. 
 

 

[FlySafe]

Interesting article in May IFR Magazine related to instrument currency. In the study cited, only 20% of instrument pilots complete 6 or more approaches in 6 months for currency in the air (I’m assuming they did the hold, tracks and intercepts as well Have a look and see where you fall in comparison and on use of an ATD in your flying. fly safe

k 

Edited May 4, 2022 by FlySafe
fixed a typo sited -> cited

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, FlySafe said:

Interesting article in May IFR Magazine related to instrument currency. In the study sited, only 20% of instrument pilots complete 6 or more approaches in 6 months for currency in the air (I’m assuming they did the hold, tracks and intercepts as well Have a look and see where you fall in comparison and on use of an ATD in your flying. fly safe

k 

I've always wondered how faithfully the requirement is being followed.  I also wonder if the FAA will ever attempt to use ADSB to challenge or track currency.  Would be tough but it could certainly be used as a data source.  

I've also never understood why a CFII would ever want to do an IPC; there doesn't seem to be anything in it for them but liability exposure.   

[RobertGary1]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:48 PM, DCarlton said:

I've always wondered how faithfully the requirement is being followed.  I also wonder if the FAA will ever attempt to use ADSB to challenge or track currency.  Would be tough but it could certainly be used as a data source.  

I've also never understood why a CFII would ever want to do an IPC; there doesn't seem to be anything in it for them but liability exposure.   

Same for bfr or anything else. It’s just part of the job. 

[DCarlton]

22 hours ago, JohnZ said:

@DCarlton I like doing IPCs with people. Going up with others and observing how they do things can be a good learning experience for both parties. Getting someone back up to speed on instrument flying after they’ve been out of practice for awhile is very satisfying for me. There isn’t much liability exposure in my opinion if they demonstrate a safe level of proficiency and you use the FAA IPC tasks checklist (found in the instrument ACS) as your guide for completing the IPC. CFIIs endorse people for checkrides all the time. Signing off an IPC for someone who is already an instrument rated pilot that has fallen out of currency is hardly more liability than signing off a student pilot for a solo or checkride saying they are ready to hold a PPL. 

I'm whining now, but I realized today that all I've done since COVID is maintain currency and sustain the aviation bureaucracy.  Every single time I fly I'm either doing a post maintenance check, touch and goes, a BFR or IFR approaches; nothing more.  Haven't really gone anywhere since COVID and since I retired (lost my primary mission).  I'm going to try to get through an IPC and get the fun back.  Time to get out and go somewhere again.  

[midlifeflyer]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:48 PM, DCarlton said:

 

I've also never understood why a CFII would ever want to do an IPC; there doesn't seem to be anything in it for them but liability exposure.   

I love doing IPCs. Although I have to cover the appropriate ACS tasks, I treat it as an opportunity to cover tasks, most dealing with their avionics, which  I think are (a) important, (b) happen in the real word, and (c) are not well covered in the training environment (I have a short list of those). If I end up teaching something they didn't know, all the better.
 

I don't worry about the liability any more than with any other type of instruction, ie, not much. But I may just have an unrealistic view of legal exposure  

Edited May 5, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[Ned Gravel]

Just passed my IPC this morning.  Martinsburg - here I come!!

[amillet]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:16 PM, DCarlton said:

This is the one aspect of flying that's driving me towards selling and getting out for good.  I'm out of currency and it's too damn hard to get it back.  Takes a commitment that I'm having a hard time mustering again.  Don't let your currency lapse.  I'll blame COVID...  

sign up for a Mooney Pilots Safety Foundation PPP.  Fun weekend and you come back with IPC and flight review.  https://mooneypilots.org/assets/pdf/ppp-mapa-sf-2022-schedule-compressed.pdf

[DCarlton]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:03 PM, amillet said:

sign up for a Mooney Pilots Safety Foundation PPP.  Fun weekend and you come back with IPC and flight review.  https://mooneypilots.org/assets/pdf/ppp-mapa-sf-2022-schedule-compressed.pdf

Looks good.  I missed Santa Maria though.  That would have been a great excuse for a short cross country weekend.  

[jaylw314]

46 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

I think you can use an ATD for logging some IMC time during training.  Don't think you can log approaches, holds and course intercept and tracking for currency requirements.  But it will sharpen your IMC skills and improve your scan.

 

https://galvinflying.com/new-ifr-currency-rules-effective-nov-26/

[midlifeflyer]

58 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

I think you can use an ATD for logging some IMC time during training.  Don't think you can log approaches, holds and course intercept and tracking for currency requirements.  But it will sharpen your IMC skills and improve your scan.

 

Assuming it's a certified ATD and the Letter of Authorization lists it (most do), you can log the 6 and 6 in it. It's right in the regs. 61.57(c)(2) to be specific.

[Pinecone]

A certified ATD may not be much cheaper per hour than an airplane.

But you don't have to drive around between approaches.

But it doesn't take that much to get the required approaches.  My last flight for approaches was in a C-182.  1.3 hours to fly to another field about 40 miles away, shoot two approaches, one with a holding in lieu of procedure turn, then back home to the RNAV B.  3 approaches, one holding, several course intercepts.