No Back Spring, update.

[Mcstealth]

Hey folks. Just talked with corporate here at the restaurant. I asked  them about the NBS issue. Their response was we just sent out all that we recieved to the different MSC's who had them ordered, but that not all MSC's recieved their particular order because of the volume, already on order. Clear as mud?

 Corporate has already ordered more to attempt to fill the backlog. 

I don't bug the guys much when I see them, but I did ask them about this issue. Hope this helps. 

D

[amillet]

I’m happy to hear they still have guys 

[PT20J]

I think I see what's going on. Most MSCs don't want to stock these and Mooney doesn't want to stock them. So Mooney waits until enough MSC have ordered to get a batch made to fill the orders. But because of the lead time now more owners need springs which means that they are out of stock again. If everyone that needed a spring in the next couple of hundred hours would place an order NOW with their favorite MSC, there might be a chance to get ahead of the game. 

[A64Pilot]

So I should call Lasar as I’m on their list for one now?

Whats the parts guys name?

Edited March 16, 2022 by A64Pilot

[47U]

23 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Whats the parts guys name?

Dan is the parts guru at LASAR…

[A64Pilot]

Thanks

[1980Mooney]

15 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

Hey folks. Just talked with corporate here at the restaurant. I asked  them about the NBS issue. Their response was we just sent out all that we recieved to the different MSC's who had them ordered, but that not all MSC's recieved their particular order because of the volume, already on order. Clear as mud?

 Corporate has already ordered more to attempt to fill the backlog. 

I don't bug the guys much when I see them, but I did ask them about this issue. Hope this helps. 

D

 

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

I think I see what's going on. Most MSCs don't want to stock these and Mooney doesn't want to stock them. So Mooney waits until enough MSC have ordered to get a batch made to fill the orders. But because of the lead time now more owners need springs which means that they are out of stock again. If everyone that needed a spring in the next couple of hundred hours would place an order NOW with their favorite MSC, there might be a chance to get ahead of the game. 

That confirms that Mooney's finances are so dire that they are living from "hand to mouth".  They can't spare any cash to pay Eaton for springs that will be tied up in inventory (working capital) for even a short period of time.   They are ordering and then immediately reselling as soon as they arrive in Kerrville.  They probably don't (can't?) pay Eaton until they receive the cash from the MSC's.  The crazy thing is that these are in such high demand that they will fly off the shelves.

It sounds like the current business model is to only build parts when they have firm orders in hand.  That means one at a time with lots of startup costs and expense or waiting for a batch of orders.  That means high cost and/or slow delivery and lots of downtime for Mooney owners unfortunate enough to need a factory part. 

Sad

Edited March 16, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[GeneralT001]

New to the game here....is this the spring that helps the gear get up/down?

How did it ever get the name "No" Back Spring?

[toto]

7 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

New to the game here....is this the spring that helps the gear get up/down?

How did it ever get the name "No" Back Spring?

It’s “no-back” … it has something to do with preventing the mechanism from rolling backwards. 

@Hyett6420 has the definitive photo essay

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/10747-no-back-spring-in-landing-gear-actuators/?do=findComment&comment=276273

 

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

That confirms that Mooney's finances are so dire that they are living from "hand to mouth".  They can't spare any cash to pay Eaton for springs that will be tied up in inventory (working capital) for even a short period of time.   They are ordering and then immediately reselling as soon as they arrive in Kerrville.  They probably don't (can't?) pay Eaton until they receive the cash from the MSC's.  The crazy thing is that these are in such high demand that they will fly off the shelves.

It sounds like the current business model is to only build parts when they have firm orders in hand.  That means one at a time with lots of startup costs and expense or waiting for a batch of orders.  That means high cost and/or slow delivery and lots of downtime for Mooney owners unfortunate enough to need a factory part. 

Sad

Maybe it’s time for them to reach out to some vendors like myself that hold PMA and make a licensing agreement for us to work together and support the fleet? I do have some capital that I can use to hold onto products and keep them in stock unlike Mooney if that’s the case. 
David

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

That confirms that Mooney's finances are so dire that they are living from "hand to mouth".  They can't spare any cash to pay Eaton for springs that will be tied up in inventory (working capital) for even a short period of time.   They are ordering and then immediately reselling as soon as they arrive in Kerrville.  They probably don't (can't?) pay Eaton until they receive the cash from the MSC's.  The crazy thing is that these are in such high demand that they will fly off the shelves.

It sounds like the current business model is to only build parts when they have firm orders in hand.  That means one at a time with lots of startup costs and expense or waiting for a batch of orders.  That means high cost and/or slow delivery and lots of downtime for Mooney owners unfortunate enough to need a factory part. 

Sad

I wouldn't infer anything from the situation. The trend in manufacturing has been lean inventories and just in time deliveries from vendors for years. If you think about how many parts Mooney has for all their supported models, keeping just a handful of each in inventory represents a huge investment. The demand for repair parts is going to be lumpy and difficult to predict. Also, lead times have increased in many industries. Maybe Mooney used to get these rather quickly when they ordered a batch and now it takes a lot longer. Who knows? Mooney has it's share of issues, but the manufacturing world is not running like it used to anywhere. You cannot get a lot of Garmin products right now and, last I checked, Garmin is doing pretty well.

Skip

[Guest]

Last cycle for the NBS a few years ago I ordered 5 of them at more than $1000 each, I’m down to one now.  I’ve also purchased other parts from Mooney on speculation that I might sell them in the future.  Would someone smash an elevator and buy the skins from me!

The whole supply chain is screwed up, we just got Cirrus tires in that we ordered last fall.  Everyone is suffering the same issues, not just Mooney.

Clarence

 

[ArtVandelay]

Even oil filters are back ordered.

[A64Pilot]

5 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Even oil filters are back ordered.

So is oil, at least Shell 15W-50 was, but I’m sure if you shop around you can find it, just maybe not at the price you wanted. That’s the real story behind all of this supply chain stuff, the parts are out there, just not at OEM price if your a manufacturer, if ther is a shortage and there is, why would they sell to an OEM at half price when they can get full retail plus some?

I tried getting Dan, phone said to send a message which I did, never heard back, I guess I’ll try the phone tomorrow.

[Fly Boomer]

Just cancelled an order for a half dozen that I placed in December.

EDIT:  oil filters

[larrynimmo]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Last cycle for the NBS a few years ago I ordered 5 of them at more than $1000 each, I’m down to one now.  I’ve also purchased other parts from Mooney on speculation that I might sell them in the future.  Would someone smash an elevator and buy the skins from me!

The whole supply chain is screwed up, we just got Cirrus tires in that we ordered last fall.  Everyone is suffering the same issues, not just Mooney.

Clarence

 

Well….as a matter of fact!

[RobertGary1]

8 hours ago, GeneralT001 said:

New to the game here....is this the spring that helps the gear get up/down?

How did it ever get the name "No" Back Spring?

As I recall it’s to hold back the clutch for the emergency extension. It’s on the actuator not on the actual gear. 

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

As I recall it’s to hold back the clutch for the emergency extension. It’s on the actuator not on the actual gear. 

Mooney electric gear has no uplock and the actuator is a low friction ball screw mechanism which can be back driven. No back spring is a wrap spring brake to prevent the weight of the gear from back driving the actuator in order to keep gear fully retracted. It also apparently acts as a wrap spring clutch to drive gear down which is why if it fails the gear may not fully extend. It is in the drive train after both the motor and the emergency drive, so if it fails the gear doesn’t work with either. 

Skip

[1980Mooney]

Side issue - Many have asked how many no back springs have failed.  I have never found any statistics however here is the FAA Incident Report of the first Eagle M20S Serial number 30-0001 N2234X that suffered a spring failure at 178 hours since compliance with the SB in Dec. 2003.  It describes the failure mode.

IN FLIGHT, 178.3 HOURS SINCE COMPLIANCE WITH MFG SB AND MANDATORY REPLACEMENT OF NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING WITH NEW. BOTH TANG ENDS BROKE OFF OF SPRING INSIDE OF LANDING GEAR ACTUATOR WHEN GEAR WAS SELECTED DOWN FOR LANDING. ONE BROKEN TANG APPARENTLY JAMMED BETWEEN THE NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING AND THE NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING HOUSING MAKING EITHER ELECTRICAL OR EMERGENCY MANUAL EXTENSION OF THE LANDING GEAR IMPOSSIBLE. AC WAS LANDED, GEAR UP, UNEVENTFULLY BUT SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE TOPROPELLER AND BOTTOM OF FUSELAGE WAS CAUSED BY CONTACT WITH RUNWAY. INVESTIGATION UNDER WAY, OTHER REPORTS OF IDENTICALFAILURES.

Edited March 17, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[jetdriven]

8 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Maybe it’s time for them to reach out to some vendors like myself that hold PMA and make a licensing agreement for us to work together and support the fleet? I do have some capital that I can use to hold onto products and keep them in stock unlike Mooney if that’s the case. 
David

That might be too easy, David !

[toto]

32 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Side issue - Many have asked how many no back springs have failed.  I have never found any statistics however here is the FAA Incident Report of the first Eagle M20S Serial number 30-0001 N2234X that suffered a spring failure at 178 hours since compliance with the SB in Dec. 2003.  It describes the failure mode.

IN FLIGHT, 178.3 HOURS SINCE COMPLIANCE WITH MFG SB AND MANDATORY REPLACEMENT OF NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING WITH NEW. BOTH TANG ENDS BROKE OFF OF SPRING INSIDE OF LANDING GEAR ACTUATOR WHEN GEAR WAS SELECTED DOWN FOR LANDING. ONE BROKEN TANG APPARENTLY JAMMED BETWEEN THE NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING AND THE NO BACK CLUTCH SPRING HOUSING MAKING EITHER ELECTRICAL OR EMERGENCY MANUAL EXTENSION OF THE LANDING GEAR IMPOSSIBLE. AC WAS LANDED, GEAR UP, UNEVENTFULLY BUT SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE TOPROPELLER AND BOTTOM OF FUSELAGE WAS CAUSED BY CONTACT WITH RUNWAY. INVESTIGATION UNDER WAY, OTHER REPORTS OF IDENTICALFAILURES.

It’s been widely opined on MS that the 1000 interval is intentionally conservative, and that a more realistic lifespan for these springs (based, I guess, on some average number of landing cycles per hour for the fleet) is several thousand hours. 

A failure of a new replacement spring at 178 hours is pretty unfortunate. Wonder how long the original one would have lasted.

[jetdriven]

I think the original Springs had an infinite service life as it should, and the replacement batches are the ones that are defective

[GeeBee]

14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

So is oil, at least Shell 15W-50 was, but I’m sure if you shop around you can find it, just maybe not at the price you wanted. That’s the real story behind all of this supply chain stuff, the parts are out there, just not at OEM price if your a manufacturer, if ther is a shortage and there is, why would they sell to an OEM at half price when they can get full retail plus some?

I tried getting Dan, phone said to send a message which I did, never heard back, I guess I’ll try the phone tomorrow.

I picked up 3 cases at Aircraft Spruce yesterday.

 

[A64Pilot]

41 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I picked up 3 cases at Aircraft Spruce yesterday.

 

I ended up buying from Spruce, just with them shipping is so expensive you need to have an order exceeding $350 to get free shipping.

These guys have free shipping and had no stock, but I believe they do now.

https://aviationoiloutlet.com

What I’m learning is in todays world best have any consumables well in advance of the need, who wants to be AOG for oil, filters, plugs etc? Used to be I’d order consumables just before I needed them, now I’m building a “stash”, reorder a six pack of oil filters when you have three left as opposed to when you grab the last one.

Plus now often you buy from who has it, where you used to buy from who has it for the best price.

[toto]

5 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I ended up buying from Spruce, just with them shipping is so expensive you need to have an order exceeding $350 to get free shipping.

These guys have free shipping and had no stock, but I believe they do now.

https://aviationoiloutlet.com

What I’m learning is in todays world best have any consumables well in advance of the need, who wants to be AOG for oil, filters, plugs etc? Used to be I’d order consumables just before I needed them, now I’m building a “stash”, reorder a six pack of oil filters when you have three left as opposed to when you grab the last one.

Plus now often you buy from who has it, where you used to buy from who has it for the best price.

+1 for Aviation Oil Outlet. Great experience, cheapest price I have seen online anywhere in the past few years. I usually buy about four cases of oil at a time.