Should Tesla buy Mooney?

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

I've charged at probably 75 different superchargers and I don't recall seeing an Electrify America charger near any of them.  I do recall some Chargepoint chargers but they were only level 2...

look harder. 

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

By the way...I spoke about the VW's I drove previously.  They were all diesel vehicles which were purchased back because of dieselgate.  Part of that settlement was $2 billion that went to install Electrify America chargers.  Whenever you see an EA charger you can think of VW and dieslegate...

ok. 

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

Tesla developed their plug before there was even a standard.  It is also much more aesthetically pleasing than the other versions that have now become standard...

not true at all. 100% incorrect. 

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

You don't use a Tesla charger at home?  Why would you have a Tesla and charge at an Electrify America charger?

because my building installed generic chargers. As did my work place. 

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

I don't disagree that older Mooney's look older... 

 

it’s not about the look, it’s about the design and the materials. You aren’t comprehending the point. 

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

Soon, though, you will be saying that about any aircraft that has an ICE engine and not an electric motor...

 

Yeah, I don’t think so. Again, I don’t think there is anyone besides fanatics that think this way. 
 

 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Hybrids are very complex, they contain ALL of the parts of an ICE vehicle, and ALL of the parts of an EV and therefore are expensive and complex machines.

And yet, my Prius has 145,000 miles, and I have replaced the boot battery and tires.  Crappy factory tires were about done at 90,000.  Could have made it to 100,000 but it was a little "shifty" in the slick.

[Schllc]

21 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

And yet, my Prius has 145,000 miles, and I have replaced the boot battery and tires.  Crappy factory tires were about done at 90,000.  Could have made it to 100,000 but it was a little "shifty" in the slick.

Cause it’s a Toyota. 
If Toyota announced it was making a plane I’d buy two without knowing what it even looked like or the numbers because it would exceed both of those expectations no matter what they were.  
And, ten years later I’d probably get more than I paid for both them, regret sellin immediately and buy two more! 

[A64Pilot]

Toyota was going to build a small four passenger airplane powered by one of the Lexus motors, but pretty much figured out that they couldn’t make enough money to make it worthwhile and shelved the project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TAA-1

Honda of course did pretty much the same thing and decided the money was in Bizjets, but ended up having GE certify the engine and their program drug on for so  many years even after they had a factory built etc I’d be surprised if they have even broken even

https://www.flightglobal.com/honda-gets-into-gear-for-piston-engine-production/47344.article

 

On edit, if Toyota and Honda can’t make money in this small piston airplane thing, you know it has to be tough.

Edited March 11, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TAA-1

13 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

And yet, my Prius has 145,000 miles, and I have replaced the boot battery and tires.  Crappy factory tires were about done at 90,000.  Could have made it to 100,000 but it was a little "shifty" in the slick.

I lost the first response, but the Prius is incredibly complex with planetary gearing (PSD) two motor generators, one on the engine and the second in the PSD, even the brakes are complex. The buzz then click you hear when you open the door is a electric hydraulic pump pressurizing the brake accumulator, the Prius has no master cylinder it has a “stroke simulator” to emulate the feel of regular brakes, when you begin to apply brakes in a Prius initially it’s LVDT’s applying an electronic signal to engage MG2 as a generator for braking, continue to push the pedal and then you begin to open hydraulic valves to take pressure from the brake accumulator to apply brakes, which of course the electric hydraulic pump keeps pressurized. It’s actually all computer controlled but the computer  does those things based largely on how hard and fast your pushed the pedal, point is it’s no simple mechanical thing

There are two cooling systems, one for the ICE another for a very large and expensive Inverter, see the Prius has two AC synchronous motors which require AC power but of course the battery is DC. So if you ever jump start a Prius be sure to follow directions or you will fry the inverter, which years ago was 5 grand, but I bet junkyards are full of them as the Prius is very reliable, a very real issue in a Hybrid is keeping the engine warm in cold weather as the engine spends so much time not running,  my 2010 Prius and I assume the newer ones actually ran the engine cooling system to the catalytic convertor to steal its heat to keep the engine warm, and of course in cold weather often the engine ran when it wasn’t need for propulsion to supply cabin heat, so MPG goes down in the cold.

I can go on and on as the car fascinated me, and I really dug  into it as it shouldn’t logically work as well as it does.

For instance at a set steady speed on the highway it should get less milage than a normal car as it’s hybrid system is not used but it’s carrying all that extra weight, but it in fact does get better milage.  It does that as it was the first car who’s engine emulated the Atkinson cycle via valve timing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

As I said Toyota Engineers were Geniuses to develop the thing, and it’s very well made but it is a very complex machine. When we bought ours and it may still be that way, but the Prius was the only Toyota sold in the US that was completely manufactured solely in Japan.

‘I strongly considered another Prius as our served us so well, but decided to give electric a try as I think of Hybrid as a bridge technology to full electric.

A battery EV is by comparison to a Prius a very simple device, there is not much to one, doesn’t even have a transmission, the brakes are ordinary brakes with a master cylinder and four slaves, because the regen braking is tied to the go pedal and not the brake pedal.

Toyota worked very hard to make the Prius drive exactly like a regular car, made it so a small amount of regen matched engine braking, and even went so far as to make the car “creep” when in gear, so that the transition would be seamless. In fact there is no in gear or neutral or reverse, The PSD is a planetary system that is always engaged, gear ratios are changed by varying torque from MG1/ICE and MG2, above 42 MPH the ICE is spinning, it has to as MG2 reaches its RPM limit at 42 MPH, but while the ICE has to be spinning, often it’s just being driven by MG1 and it’s not consuming fuel, for instance lift the throttle at highway speeds. Prius has no reverse, the way it can go backward is by MG2 running in reverse, the first Prii’s couldn’t pull a steep hill in reverse for example.

Around 2011 or 2012 or so Toyota was going to make Prius it’s own brand like Lexus as they were so popular and build small delivery type of vehicles etc. but then gas got cheap and Americans went back to their PU’s and SUV’s.

Our Prius had 279,000 miles on it when we traded it, it would have easily gone well past 300,000 I’m sure as it burned no oil. I strongly considered another Prius, but wanted to give this electric thing a try as I consider Hybrid as a bridge technology to full electric.

A battery EV complexity wise is a Flintstone vehicle compared to a Prius.

 

On edit my point on it being a complex machine is more tied to it being expensive to manufacture, a BEV by comparison should be much less expensive to manufacture, the battery I guess is why it’s not, but other then the battery , it’s really just a fancy golf cart.

Once this gets going I’d expect to see small compact BEV’s at a low price.

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Toyota worked very hard to make the Prius drive exactly like a regular car

Agree.  When I first got it, I told many curious people that, once you figure out the goofy shifter, there is zero difference to driving any other car.  That said, there are many fascinating and almost incomprehensible things happening "under the hood".

[Kmac]

Just yesterday I had a thought that since aircraft create static electricity and have static wicks and sometimes even witness St. Elmo's Fire that there may be a way to harness some of that energy to extend the range of electric aircraft.  I deleted a post that I made on that because I wanted to verify that there was a patent on it first.

There is already a patent claimed by Ion Power Group awarded in 2014.

Apparently high voltage low amperage static electricity can be collected but the amount that would come off a traveling aircraft would probably be insufficient to extend range beyond carrying the equipment to do so...

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

18 minutes ago, Kmac said:

There is already a patent claimed by Ion Power Group awarded in 2014.

Wow.  Just, wow.  Yet Joe Newman never got his patent. 

[EricJ]

37 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Wow.  Just, wow.  Yet Joe Newman never got his patent. 

Exactly. 

You can patent anything that isn't a perpetual motion machine and hasn't already been patented.   Using a laser pointer as a cat exerciser has been patented.

A patent existing has no bearing on the utility or practicality of the invention.

Edited March 11, 2022 by EricJ

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Agree.  When I first got it, I told many curious people that, once you figure out the goofy shifter, there is zero difference to driving any other car.  That said, there are many fascinating and almost incomprehensible things happening "under the hood".

In particular the Gen 2 Prius was especially fascinating, Gen 3 began in 2010.

The Gen 2 once you parked it, it would pump every bit of engine coolant into a vacuum insulated bottle where it could maintain temp for days to prevent the wasteful warm up time. it even had a fuel bladder in the tank that would fill and collapse when fuel was used, the idea was if there is no vapor, no vapor emissions, also had sensors inside the tank to detect a leaking bladder, the fuel fill nozzle would seal to the bladder to prevent any air to be introduced.

Sit and listen to a Prius for awhile after you shut if off, you’ll hear all kinds of clicks and buzzes as it runs BIT (built in test) on different systems, it is very complex, but paradoxically also very reliable, it’s complexity is my theory on why it’s only built in Japan, or was not sure now.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

You can patent anything that isn't a perpetual motion machine and hasn't already been patented.   Using a laser pointer as a cat exerciser has been patented.

A patent existing has no bearing on the utility or practicality of the invention.

Well, there is a big difference between a Design Patent and a Utility Patent.

[EricJ]

Just now, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Well, there is a big difference between a Design Patent and a Utility Patent.

True.  When people bring design patents into such discussions you kinda know it's gone off the rails, tho... 

[A64Pilot]

You guys scoff, but eventually electric propulsion will mostly replace ICE, mostly as I believe there will always be cases where only an ICE will do, ships for example, I can’t imagine a BEV ocean crossing ship? Or imagine how big a battery a Bulldozer would have to have, or even a farm tractor, expedition vehicles, where are you going to plug in?

Why because an electric motor can pretty easily achieve about 95% thermal efficiency, where our aircraft which by they way are more efficient then we think are stuck what about mid 30’s or so? Even if by some magic we could double the efficiency, we are still about 70%

Not saying this year or even this decade, but it will happen. Will it for small GA airplanes? Maybe not as we are a tiny small market compared to costs to develop it, but mass market you will see more and more EV’s

On edit, I believe about 10% of the drag on a Mooney is from engine cooling, make that go away and it’s a huge difference

Edited March 11, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Fly Boomer]

 

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

 

I wonder how long it will pull that plow? And what does a battery pack like that cost.

Musk of course keeps promising a Tesla Semi, powered by four Model 3 drive trains and if true it has when fully loaded almost car like acceleration.

I just would have thought that real high power applications like a tractor or Bulldozer wouldn’t be workable, to pull spray implements etc sure, but a plow takes a whole bunch of power.

[jaylw314]

38 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I wonder how long it will pull that plow? And what does a battery pack like that cost.

Musk of course keeps promising a Tesla Semi, powered by four Model 3 drive trains and if true it has when fully loaded almost car like acceleration.

I just would have thought that real high power applications like a tractor or Bulldozer wouldn’t be workable, to pull spray implements etc sure, but a plow takes a whole bunch of power.

Electric motors are great for that sort of application, power is pretty flat throughout the speed range, so you get max torque at low speeds.

Electric batteries, on the other hand, might not be up to the task...

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

 

Electric batteries, on the other hand, might not be up to the task...

Now where did I put that extension cord? Just a little in jest as many big machines like huge drag lines are electric, I think they may have separate generating plants though

[Guest]

The North American power grid is going to need a major upgrade to be able to charge all of these electric cars, along with new clean power generation.

Clarence

[EricJ]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The North American power grid is going to need a major upgrade to be able to charge all of these electric cars, along with new clean power generation.

Clarence

Nuclear is the cleanest, cheapest energy there is, but nobody wants that for some reason.

 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

The North American power grid is going to need a major upgrade to be able to charge all of these electric cars, along with new clean power generation.

Clarence

I ran some numbers a while ago,but admit I’m not the best at math, but if the mainstream EV becomes SUV’s and PU’s like it looks like it very may well be, then the average family may use more electricity to power their vehicle than they do their house, so yes Nukes is likely I think the only real viable answer. so long as we don’t build Rickover’s 1950’s high pressure water reactors, there are much better, cheaper and safer designs.

But if you think  it’s tough getting electronic ignition certified, that’s nothing compared to a nuke plant

However IF we were to go whole hog into renewables a very big problem with them is they aren’t  reliable, sun doesn’t always shine nor the wind always blow.

But a metric shed load of EV’s plugged into the grid could be a truly massive storage capacity to use to get through short falls, I could see people buying power at less then they would sell it back at, that would incentive them to allow their EV’s to be used for storage.

My Tesla is a 50KWH battery but these SUV’s and PU’s I think will have 200 KWH batteries? F-150 apparently 130, and Hummer 200.

Average US family uses 29 KWH per day.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

IF you dumped the SUV / PU thing and went to truly efficient EV’s then you really could in most cases run a house and vehicle off of a Solar installation, depending on location of course, but it would take a real dedication towards efficiency in everything to get there. I ran pretty much everything on our boat except for the watermaker and HVAC off of 1,000W of Solar and 1,000W is a piddly nothing, You would want likely 10 or 20 times that for a house especially if you had a pool or hangar or something.

But your not getting people out of their three row SUV’s and PU’s unless you drag them out.

We owned a Prius for 12 years, and whenever gas would get expensive the Prius’s would sell out often above sticker, but let gas get cheap again and you couldn’t give one away.

Edited March 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[markgrue]

One of the reasons electric cars are much cheaper to operate than gasoline cars is road fuel taxes that include about19 cents per gallon federal tax and 8 to 58 cents per gallon. State tax.  Currently electric cars do not pay anything to drive on public roads.  That will change as soon as politicians find a way to track miles driven.  With internet connected cars it will be soon.   When they send you a bill for 2 to 4 cents per mile it will even out.

 

Mark 

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, markgrue said:

One of the reasons electric cars are much cheaper to operate than gasoline cars is road fuel taxes that include about19 cents per gallon federal tax and 8 to 58 cents per gallon. State tax.  Currently electric cars do not pay anything to drive on public roads.  That will change as soon as politicians find a way to track miles driven.  With internet connected cars it will be soon.   When they send you a bill for 2 to 4 cents per mile it will even out.

 

Mark 

I initially though that true also, but in a great many States it’s not, more and more States are waking up to a whole new taxing opportunity and EV’s are often hit with higher taxes than gas cars. It wouldn’t be right for EV’s to get a free ride, but it ought to be equitable.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/

Some newer EV’s won’t really be all that efficient, the Tesla Model 3 is the most efficient EV, largely to its extremely low drag, but also it’s new motor design is about 95% efficient.

An ICE vehicle will never even come close to that, I believe the motor in the Prius tops the efficiency game by being 41 percent efficient.

A Prius has about the same CD, so even if power from gas was as cheap as electricity from the grid a Model 3 would cost about half what it costs to drive a Prius, which is a VERY frugal car. we got on average 60 ish MPG with ours.

It’s the high efficiency of an electric motor is why an EV is so frugal.

They won’t track mileage. that would be hard and could be equitable. they are just after the money and slapping on a single fee at registration gets then that with the least amount work.

Edited March 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I initially though that true also, but in a great many States it’s not, more and more States are waking up to a whole new taxing opportunity and EV’s are often hit with higher taxes than gas cars. It wouldn’t be right for EV’s to get a free ride, but it ought to be equitable.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/

Some newer EV’s won’t really be all that efficient, the Tesla Model 3 is the most efficient EV, largely to its extremely low drag, but also it’s new motor design is about 95% efficient.

An ICE vehicle will never even come close to that, I believe the motor in the Prius tops the efficiency game by being 41 percent efficient.

A Prius has about the same CD, so even if power from gas was as cheap as electricity from the grid a Model 3 would cost about half what it costs to drive a Prius, which is a VERY frugal car. we got on average 60 ish MPG with ours.

It’s the high efficiency of an electric motor is why an EV is so frugal.

They won’t track mileage. that would be hard and could be equitable. they are just after the money and slapping on a single fee at registration gets then that with the least amount work.

I think where many of these ideas fail is in the myopic approach to the calculation of efficiency.  
Take for example air conditioners. 
I own a building that has 10 separate units, each of which is identical in use and size. 
two of the units until recently were original.
The building was built in 1984. The other units have all been replaced between four to  eight time each, neither of these units ever required a repair to the closed system. 
5-10 years has almost become the service life of air conditioners. 
Now is the improved efficiency gained as a result of government mandated specifications and refrigerant changes actually caused less of an impact, and a net energy savings, than changing a unit 8 times?  This doesn’t count repairs, refrigerant losses etc. 

Almost everything appliance related (having a hard time thinking of anything made to be serviced long term actually) has become throw away as a result and cars are not far from the same fate. 

What are the impact of these types of things on EV and how does it factor in?

I agree that we are headed in the direction of EV’s but I am dubious of the cumulative “savings” they will provide. 
 

The whole carbon argument itself is suspect.   
Science may indicate warming temperatures, but there is scant evidence codifying that it’s caused by humans. 
ICE will be around for a LONG time. 
Only one thing, in my humble opinion, is certain…. 
if it hasn’t occurred before, relatively soon after the fossil fuels are depleted, battery breakthroughs will be made!

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

ICE will be around for a LONG time. 

Ray, I personally think their future is shorter than a lot of us old racers would even like. From a car manufacture perspective, every R&D dollar from the "big" 3 or the rest of the entrants for that matter is being spent on developing an EV strategy that might be able to be competitive with the company our current administration cannot seem to name. There is a reason for this, as they know which direction Mr. Market is pushing them. Design obsolescence has been around for a while, and why we dont see the roads filled with 1993 caddies and such, but I sure get your point about the HVAC replacement. The green way would be NO AC. (or do I mean AOC?)  Replacing a boiler made in 1920 isnt exactly energy efficient from well thru installed life, but it is being done regularly.

saving a few bucks on per mile cost is good, denying the congress more $ to steal from the highway fund even better, but stomping a lambo in a 1/4 mile in your SUV, priceless

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/tesla-model-x-plaid-lamborghini-huracan-evo-drag-race-1234667817/

 

Mike

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