Canada Space Based ADS-B Starting in 2023 (Dirversity ADS-B)

[Jerry 5TJ]

  On 2/15/2022 at 10:41 PM, ohdub said:

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the "out" part of any transponder is single band, it's only the "in" that is dual band.

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1090 transponders transmit on that frequency.   UAT transmit on 978 MHz.   1090 transponders receive on 1030 MHz.   UAT receive on 978. 

Diversity transponders (and there are both 1090 and 978 diversity systems) have dual antennas (two antennas, not one dual band antenna...) with one antenna on the top, the other on the bottom of the aircraft.   It is diversity that NavCanada is going to be demanding next year.  

 

[PeteMc]

  On 2/15/2022 at 10:41 PM, ohdub said:

Canada doesn't have TIS or FIS

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Canadian In-Flight Information Broadcasting Association (CIFIB) that is working with Nav Canada to add some UAT 978 MHz compatible ground stations throughout Canada.  Last summer I think they had or were installing three, don't know if they've added any more since then.

They're not going to install them to have full ADS-B coverage like the US, but they want to distribute them where they'll do the most good in getting Wx into the cockpit.

 

[ohdub]

  On 2/16/2022 at 12:10 AM, PeteMc said:

Canadian In-Flight Information Broadcasting Association (CIFIB) that is working with Nav Canada to add some UAT 978 MHz compatible ground stations throughout Canada.  Last summer I think they had or were installing three, don't know if they've added any more since then.

They're not going to install them to have full ADS-B coverage like the US, but they want to distribute them where they'll do the most good in getting Wx into the cockpit.

 

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I couldn't remember their name, but yes, they installed a unit at my home field ( Burlington CZBA). I had not heard that they were in any way working with Nav Canada, I thought they were entirely independent. 

[PeteMc]

  On 2/16/2022 at 2:22 AM, ohdub said:

thought they were entirely independent. 

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I tried to find the article I had read about them, but no luck.  I think they are independent right now, but I *THINK* the article said they are working with Nav Canada in hopes to get them to take over their project. 

Does/did Canada have no plan to provide inflight Wx, traffic, etc. like the US?  That's seems very short sighted.  They don't need the infrastructure the US has to at least provide the WX broadcasts. 

[milotron]

No plans to broadcast any kind of information like  the US does. I think this make the whole thing even worse, really nothing in it for the GA owners aside from a $10k bill to upgrade.

I know there are quite a few areas with no radar coverage at all, hence the desire to go this route and it makes sense. Even in British Columbia, which not far north, has many areas that barely have radio coverage at GA altitudes let alone radar. It is just frustrating that two countries that share the same airspaces can't even remotely coordinate their multi-million dollar infrastructure planning.

The over flight of US or CDN airspace on domestic flight is an interesting issue. We do it daily in Victoria to pretty much any where to the east.  Making a grey area of enforcement around the border might happen but seems contrary to putting mandates in place.

[carusoam]

  On 2/16/2022 at 3:57 AM, PeteMc said:

 

Does/did Canada have no plan to provide inflight Wx, traffic, etc. like the US?  That's seems very short sighted.  They don't need the infrastructure the US has to at least provide the WX broadcasts. 

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Some really good ideas… cost a lot of money…

Spreading that cost over the entire country’s population works wonders….

Canada is a pretty big country… with a population similar to that of California… (under 40 Million according to Alexa…)

For comparison… the US has a population of 330+ Million people…

 

In NJ… cell phone coverage covers every square foot of the state….

Drive towards Maine… you lose cell coverage for long stretches of the highway….

Satellite technology for the people of the world… is just starting to get launched… Capitalism is everything… Go SpaceX…

 

Probably not as short sighted as it is short funded…

PP financial skills only, not a government finance officer…

Best regards,

-a-

[ohdub]

  On 2/16/2022 at 3:57 AM, PeteMc said:

Does/did Canada have no plan to provide inflight Wx, traffic, etc. like the US?  That's seems very short sighted.  They don't need the infrastructure the US has to at least provide the WX broadcasts. 

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I am not aware of any plan by NAV Canada to provide TIS-B or FIS-B. While I would of course love to have it, I don't know how feasible it would be when they've gone the route of space based ADS-B.

For the US, I image to cost to provide it is minimal in addition to the ADS-B ground stations they were already installing. If you are building, powering and servicing the receivers, it's probably minimal cost to add the transmitters in the same locations.

To install ground stations all over Canada only to provide wx and traffic information would be hugely expensive. Perhaps if it was possible for the satellites to broadcast it, that would be great, but I don't believe they have that capability and they are already in space so it's probably too late.

[philip_g]

  On 2/15/2022 at 7:09 PM, 65MooneyPilot said:

To my knowledge the space system is based on having 1090ES transponder. The airplanes I flew in the airlines and any airplane that flies above 18,000 is required to have 1090ES. We also had ADS-C for over water flights. If we had space based in America, we most likely would not have TIS and FIS which are broadcast on the 978UAT Frequency.  I installed a 1090ES transponder but I really like the traffic and weather from ADS-B in. 

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Ads-c is too slow. Cpdlc is already required so why not space based adsb with faster updates.

Edited February 16, 2022 by philip_g

[65MooneyPilot]

When using 1090es your ADS-B in will receive traffic, you don’t need TIS. The only reason for TIS to receive the traffic rebroadcast from 978 UAT. As for weather, can you use XM weather in Canada? 

[65MooneyPilot]

Airlines only install what they are required. There are only 3 centers in the us that use CPDLC. Washington, Indianapolis, and Kansas City. Someday they will actually turn everything on with the space base ADS-B. Canada’s CPDLC works for the whole country. In Europe they almost never use CPDLC. 

[65MooneyPilot]

I have been ferrying aircraft to China for freight conversions. We had RVSM but no CPDLC. You are lucky if you have an FMS with a database in it and don’t have to put coordinates in to get there. 

[65MooneyPilot]

If you are operating part 91, I don’t think you have to have all the latest and greatest. 

[PeteMc]

  On 2/16/2022 at 4:19 AM, carusoam said:

cost a lot of money…

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  On 2/16/2022 at 5:16 AM, ohdub said:

I don't know how feasible

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I'm not talking the full two way ADS-B Ground Stations.  But I am wondering about just higher powered FIS-B Transmitters along the more widely used corridors and at a number of Airports?

Perfect, no.  But it would be SO MUCH better than having nothing at all.  Maybe CIFIB could be adding this too as one of their initiatives vs. pushing for full UAT 978 ADS-B?

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by PeteMc

[65MooneyPilot]

I just looked up XM aviation weather and it does work in Canada except for the extreme north. For the iPad it’s 39.99 and you can suspend for six months at a time without paying 25 dollar reconnect fee. I would definitely consider it. Yes it’s not the pilot deal of free but it works on the ground and the radar refresh rate is 2.5 minutes instead of 5 minutes.  
Bad news the SXAR1 is no longer available unless you can get a used one however the GDL 51/52 are available for XM weather. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by 65MooneyPilot
Updated info