carusoam Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 30 minutes ago, sleeper-319 said: Out of curiosity, what’s your definition of a “true” short field? And would you change that definition for a long body? Based on how people write…. true or real… the runway is actually short. When you over run the runway… you are in the weeds…. in a simulated short field…. You may have plenty of runway for a mistake…. Great for practice… A Long Body has its own short field procedures…. Practice with a simulated short field prior to actually going into a short field… LBs are a bit heavier, travel faster, and the pilot needs to account for the extra momentum… The definition of a short field depends on the plane you are flying…. And it’s separate abilities to T/O and land… 2k’ is generally a short field for most Mooney pilots… weather conditions certainly apply…. PP thoughts only… -a- 1 Quote
sleeper-319 Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 23 minutes ago, carusoam said: Based on how people write…. Yeah, I get all that. I guess I’m just curious what people would call short (and I know loading and DA are big variables). I’ve only had my J for 8 months, so I’m still very much learning. Runway at my home field is 2700’ (at essentially sea level), but almost everywhere I’ve been the runways are longer. I know there are lots of variables, and maybe “put a number to short” was a bit of a dumb question. Mostly was just curious what feels short to people. Quote
carusoam Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 10 minutes ago, sleeper-319 said: Yeah, I get all that. I guess I’m just curious what people would call short (and I know loading and DA are big variables). I’ve only had my J for 8 months, so I’m still very much learning. Runway at my home field is 2700’ (at essentially sea level), but almost everywhere I’ve been the runways are longer. I know there are lots of variables, and maybe “put a number to short” was a bit of a dumb question. Mostly was just curious what feels short to people. Great question! Many Mooneys live on fields with runways less than 3k’… As they get closer to 2k’…. They are short. By this definition… The pilot has to be on his game… know the numbers… fly as he expects…and be ready to go around and reject take offs…. A simple approach with airspeed 10kias too high… turns into 1k’ of runway used…. Before touching down. A simple T/O without the expected power… turns into a lot of runway used… Rule of thumb… don’t land past the midway point…. Similar rule for T/O… know your numbers…everything is good. not knowing your numbers… adds a lot of risk… PP thoughts only, not a CFI… Best regards, -a- Quote
Guest Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 4 hours ago, EricJ said: Ooh, thanks! I didn't have either of those on the controversy list. For the OP, these are things for which there is significant disagreement among the righteous and heretics of Mooney piloting. There's no need to pick a side, sometimes it's just fun to watch: Touch and goes will kill you. Levelling the airplane during gear swing with prop stand, engine lift point, tail stand, or straps on the engine mount. ROP vs LOP Using your bare hand to wipe the windscreen. Whether to lock the baggage hatch or not. Bladders vs patching/resealing tanks. Take off with or without flaps. OPP stuff, legal or not, etc. Don't let the prop drive the engine. Avoid shock cooling. You forgot: Pipers are better than……… Anything smaller that an IO-720 is a trainer engine! Clarence Quote
Pete M Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 Power back 15, prop 1950...easy... Other more fun ways to slow down... Go find a real flight instructor... 1 Quote
Bartman Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 3 hours ago, sleeper-319 said: Out of curiosity, what’s your definition of a “true” short field? And would you change that definition for a long body? My transition instructor required me to land at KGDY which has since closed in 2019. It was 2,200 ft and on a former mountain top removal strip coal mine with 500ft cliff drop at both ends. Best comparison to a carrier landing that I can think of, but at the same time obviously no where near that.... Since then I have a new personal requirement. Our home airport has an exit at 1,000 ft and several times per year I challenge myself to do 3 consecutive landings with exit at 1,000 feet. I figure if I can do that I'm good. Your definition of short field is up to your capabilities in your aircraft and I will not comment on that, but I can say even if you have an artificial "end" of the runway, landing on a 9,000 ft airport 150 feet wide looks much different than a 2,000 ft field which is 50ft wide. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 32 minutes ago, Pete M said: Power back 15, prop 1950...easy... Other more fun ways to slow down... Go find a real flight instructor... Prop max…. Makes for a great brake… feels similar to down shifting into a turn… then see Eric’s note above about the prop driving the engine…. One of these days… I’m coming to find you! (Note on my desk says find Pete….) For really slowing down…(E-descent) Speed brakes out, gear down, throttle out, prop in, air speed at Vg…. Descent rate is well off the VSI scale. You will be on the ground in a few minutes…. Be ready. There are various methods of removing energy from your flight… That include S-turns, flap deployment, slips, and slow flight….. Most people around here are attempting efficient flight… wasting energy at the end of the flight won’t be suitable… Stay cleaned up, descending at about 400fpm, will give a very high IAS… use caution, exceeding maneuvering speed is pretty easy as power increases with descent…. Plan the descent pretty far back if flying at higher altitudes… Sooner or later, you have to pull the MP back…. Best regards, -a- Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 Be careful with hard braking. My limited experience suggests that she can be light on her feet shortly after touchdown. Quote
carusoam Posted January 27, 2022 Report Posted January 27, 2022 2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Be careful with hard braking. My limited experience suggests that she can be light on her feet shortly after touchdown. She stays light until below 50kias/mias… Really easy to lock up the brakes. -a- Quote
Papa K Posted January 28, 2022 Author Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) I sincerely appreciate everyone concern about safety. Thanks to all who have commented on this - too many to quote each one, but I'd like to address some of the comments: 1. Yes, I read the POH a couple of times, but as this was my first flight, my instant recall of the details was lacking. I have re-read parts and things are making more sense and I expect the understanding to improve. 2. Regarding my CFI. It is fair to say that he is not a Mooney specific CFI, he has flown dozens of different makes and models, but has less than 50 hours in a Mooney. It is sound advice that I seek out a Mooney experienced CFI. Prior to starting the transition training, I thought about flying with a Mooney specific CFI. The challenge is that I am in a fairly rural area and there are no Mooney CFI's within a reasonable drive. My initial goal is to get the 10 training for insurance and this Spring or Summer have follow up training with a Mooney experienced CFI. I know were a couple are but it is a 90 drive and scheduling to get 10 hours would be very difficult. BUT, it is not fair to say the CFI is just along for the ride. My initial flight training was military helicopters and I eventually became a test pilot. I understand training plans and aircraft transitions. Prior to the familiarization flight, I spent several hours thoughtfully assessed my skills and developing a plan as I knew I had a lot to learn. Therefore, I outlined my goal for the first flight AND the goals/flight plan for the next 6 - 7 flights. It is all written and scripted out. It is a step by step progression adding new tasks and skills each flight. My goals for the familiarization flight were simple: get a feel for the flight controls and how the airplane handles; use a prop control for the first time - I wanted to know the correlation for the rate of turning the knob to the rate of changing RPM; simple S-turns but no steep turns or stalls (later flight) - I wanted to know how much back pressure to apply in a turn to keep level; altitude changes of minimum of 2000' - I wanted to see how MP and RPM react during climbs and descents; and 5-6 full stop landings - no touch and goes. Part of my request to my CFI was to keep me in safe parameters as I learn how the airplane handles and how changing throttle and prop causes the airplane to react. Thanks again for all the pointers and discussions. I truly do appreciate all the help. I think a Mooney PPP is a good idea. SO.. what are the 3 takeaways from the first flight: 1. I need to pay attention to the layout of the airspeed indicator. I was reading MPH not KIAS to lower the gear. I will make that adjustment the next flight and that should help to slow down in the pattern. 2. Flying the numbers are airspeed not MP/RPM - thanks to all who commented on that - 100/90/80 - got it 3. Level off earlier - part of a larger lesson of plan ahead as things move a lot faster than I am used to. I stead of slowing down as I enter downwind, I need to start slowing down at the county line. Thanks to all! Edited January 28, 2022 by Papa K 2 1 Quote
Papa K Posted January 28, 2022 Author Report Posted January 28, 2022 21 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: Mooneys don’t like to “go down and slow down” so you have to actually plan your descents. They also don’t like it when you come in too fast on final and force then to land. The best way to learn is with someone who has a lot of time in Mooneys. MAPA has a PPP clinic which would be ideal for a first-time Mooney owner (looks like they’ll be in Wisconsin in September - https://mooneypilots.org/assets/pdf/ppp-mapa-sf-2022-schedule-compressed.pdf). Until then, maybe some Midwest Mooney pilots can give you a recommendation for a local CFI who has time in Mooneys. They’re not “special” but they’re also pretty unforgiving of some techniques that other planes let you get away with. I can’t help you with cowl flaps since I don’t have then but the first thing I did after getting my checkout was to start working on the commercial. The commercial maneuvers will help you get used to the plane. Don’t forget to preheat! I appreciate the PPP form, I will look into the WI training. I do have an oil preheater. It is on with a blanket on the cowl so we can go for training flight #2 tomorrow. THANKS! 1 Quote
Papa K Posted January 28, 2022 Author Report Posted January 28, 2022 17 hours ago, ZuluZulu said: 1. Have you read your POH? It tells you when to use cowl flaps. Good practical advice in this thread already, but your question suggests to me that you have not read the POH's instructions yet. And why didn't your CFI go over this with you? 2. Is your instructor just along for the ride or is he actually teaching you something about the plane? It's baffling to me that he's just sitting there and letting you struggle to slow it down. Does he have any Mooney time? Yes, I read the POH a couple of times, but this was the first flight so a lot to absorb. It is the first time I've flown a complex airplane. Over 90% of my flight time is UH60 Blackhawks so things happen differently and faster than what I have previously flown. I am at the bottom of the learning curve right now and I know it. Regarding the cowl flaps - yes we talked about it, but again a lot to absorb. No, he does not have a lot of Mooney time and I know a Mooney experience CFI is a good idea but there is not one close to me. My CFI is an A&P IA, CFII MEII CFIG and has flown dozens of different makes and models models, just not a lot of Mooney. My plan is to get my 10 hours to meet insurance requirements then fly to a Mooney CFI for more training this summer. He was not just sitting there letting me struggle. I was asking questions and then trying what he told me in and attempt to make small changes to see how the airplane reacted. I am taking it step by step. Quote
donkaye Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 5 hours ago, sleeper-319 said: Out of curiosity, what’s your definition of a “true” short field? And would you change that definition for a long body? When I was teaching the Mooney PPP in Santa Maria, L52, Oceano, could be considered a short field at 2,325 x 50. It's at sea level. With practice a long body can be stopped without skidding the tires in under 800 feet at sea level. I have landed a K model on a terrible 1,800 foot runway (if you could call it a runway) at Carmel Valley when it still existed. There was a good level lead-in. I would not do it again. 2,100 feet at Fallbrook, an aircraft carrier type of runway, is really not adequate for an Ovation, although I think someone who has one was based there. A fun airport in Michigan, 45G, has a long enough runway at 3,105 feet, but the width is 24 feet, barely wider than the landing gear separation. 1 Quote
Jetman Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 We were flying the Ovation in/out of 3000ft. best be on your number or the end comes at you in a hurry! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 Transition flights can be a lot of fun… Plenty of data to read up on… Lots to memorize… and still extra to pick up along the way… Kind of like training for the IR… you get cognitively tired before you get physically tired…. Stalls and Go-Arounds and performance procedures… are more Mooney specific than other aspects of flying…. You just don’t want to be surprised to find out your CFI hasn’t done these in a Mooney before… Often, stalls aren’t taught anymore? Slow flight and coordination seem to be the important topic to avoid stalls… Uncoordinated stalls and spins are mostly just conversations… Getting ready for the traffic pattern… is what I learned flying the Long Body… With practice… you can get really good at this stuff… and have a feel for the plane… All that prior flying experience… is perfect support for getting the most out of your Mooney… except that hovering part… PP thoughts only not a CFI… Best regards, -a- Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 4 hours ago, Papa K said: Yes, I read the POH a couple of times, but this was the first flight so a lot to absorb. It is the first time I've flown a complex airplane. Over 90% of my flight time is UH60 Blackhawks so things happen differently and faster than what I have previously flown. I am at the bottom of the learning curve right now and I know it. Regarding the cowl flaps - yes we talked about it, but again a lot to absorb. No, he does not have a lot of Mooney time and I know a Mooney experience CFI is a good idea but there is not one close to me. My CFI is an A&P IA, CFII MEII CFIG and has flown dozens of different makes and models models, just not a lot of Mooney. My plan is to get my 10 hours to meet insurance requirements then fly to a Mooney CFI for more training this summer. He was not just sitting there letting me struggle. I was asking questions and then trying what he told me in and attempt to make small changes to see how the airplane reacted. I am taking it step by step. Sounds like you've got a solid plan! FWIW, I think it's more important to have a good instructor than a Mooney-specific instructor for your initial transition, especially if you're new to complex planes. Mooney's aren't really different from other low-wing planes, but they're measurably less tolerant of imprecision and complacency, so it's more important to have a good instructor who can spot where your weak areas are. On the other hand, most of the Mooney specific instructors here seem to be pretty dang good instructors, too, so there's that A more important question is whether your CFI has a lot of experience working on Mooneys as a mechanic. If he has, he'd be a handy guy to keep around! Quote
ZuluZulu Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, Papa K said: Yes, I read the POH a couple of times, but this was the first flight so a lot to absorb. It is the first time I've flown a complex airplane. Over 90% of my flight time is UH60 Blackhawks so things happen differently and faster than what I have previously flown. I am at the bottom of the learning curve right now and I know it. Regarding the cowl flaps - yes we talked about it, but again a lot to absorb. No, he does not have a lot of Mooney time and I know a Mooney experience CFI is a good idea but there is not one close to me. My CFI is an A&P IA, CFII MEII CFIG and has flown dozens of different makes and models models, just not a lot of Mooney. My plan is to get my 10 hours to meet insurance requirements then fly to a Mooney CFI for more training this summer. He was not just sitting there letting me struggle. I was asking questions and then trying what he told me in and attempt to make small changes to see how the airplane reacted. I am taking it step by step. Reconsidered after the feedback -- I was working late and got too grouchy last night, and I meant it to be more encouraging than it came across. I'll preserve this line for @ilovecornfields though: "the biologically unlikely lovechild of Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover." Edited January 28, 2022 by ZuluZulu Reconsidered Quote
65C_flier Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Papa K said: and I eventually became a test pilot When you get time, you could go out and do some stalls in all landing configs you might use (flap land, takeoff flap and no flap) to validate your POH stall numbers at a high and low weight. Make a chart for 1.3Vso and use that as threshold speed for your specific flap/weight. 100kts (not mph) base and 90 base should usually work. Use the POH procedures for cowl flaps initially until you get time to analyse your specific aircraft behaviour, then adjust from there as other have suggested (easier to monitor it with an engine analyser). Cowl flaps seem quite dependent on the specific aircraft (e.g. condition of your baffling) and obviously DA, climb speed, etc. Recently I have found my OilT and CHT creeping up above my preferred limits on hots days in cruise at 24 squared (or WOT if higher). I might need some new rubber on the baffles and re-rig the cowl flap closed position open a bit more. The engine analyser alert at 400F CHT occasionally reminds me I have forgotten to open the cowl flaps during practice missed approaches on hot days... Edited January 28, 2022 by 65C_flier Quote
Hank Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 When I say "fly by the numbers," I mean power settings for climb, cruise and descent as developed during IFR training. I also mean, for cruise, the Key Numbers as taught by MAPA, a great simplification of the Performance Tables. I also fly an easy pattern, 90 downwind, 90 base, roll wings level on final at 85, and slow to 70-75 "over the fence". While the straight ahead at Vne emergency descent certainly has its place, I find faster descent rate at cruise speed, 45° bank, power off. She falls like a rock, or a Piper straight ahead with reduced power. Good luck with your training, and get to your Mooney CFII pronto. Quote
65C_flier Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 17 hours ago, jaylw314 said: (you'll get to know what the prop sounds like around 1800 RPM) You will at least feel the yellow range vibration if it is a 79J with a 2 blade McCauley. I realise that is okay for non-continous use, but I try to avoid the yellow range for as long as practicable (until final). I guess the point is, there is no perfect number that covers all the possible Mooney variations. Know the POH and determine what works best forn your config. Quote
steingar Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 Gotta stay ahead of the airplane. You point the nose down of a trainer it doesn't speed up much, your Mooney will. Does sound like you need a better CFI too. I myself often make incremental throttle reductions on the way down such that by the time I get near the airport all I have to do is pull the nose up and I'm at gear speed. There are often bumps down low where I fly, so I try not to hit them with too much speed. Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, 65C_flier said: You will at least feel the yellow range vibration if it is a 79J with a 2 blade McCauley. I realise that is okay for non-continous use, but I try to avoid the yellow range for as long as practicable (until final). I guess the point is, there is no perfect number that covers all the possible Mooney variations. Know the POH and determine what works best forn your config. Good point, but I never bothered with it while in the pattern when I had the 2-blade Macauley. MP while descending from downwind was usually above 15" anyway, especially with the gear down. Now I have the 2-blade Hartzell that has no caution area. Edited January 28, 2022 by jaylw314 Quote
thinwing Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) cfi wisely shut up and allowed you to fly the plane and develop your feel for the plane.There is no other way to develop this seat of the pants feeling...you cant read about it or ,have Chuck Yeager him self lecture you....I think you should show the post to your current CFI and get his opinion....enjoy your new ride. Edited January 28, 2022 by thinwing clarity 1 1 Quote
ilovecornfields Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Maybe we can help @Papa K out without all insulting each other. I think everyone means well, but sometimes the caring comes off a bit harsh. We’ve all heard about experienced pilots having life ending events in Mooneys and not having had instruction from an experienced CFI, so I think all of the criticism comes from a good place and we certainly don’t want to see this gentleman suffer the same fate. It kind of reminds me of the guy recently that bought a new Mooney and wanted to fly it across Canada and asked some questions suggesting he wasn’t well prepared (I may have suggested that as well). I haven’t read about him crashing (or seen the multi-camera YouTube videos of his successfully flight) so I’m hoping he did ok. I’m still waiting for @carusoam to chime in and say “Mooneyspace is on the internet…but it’s not THE internet.” Maybe he’s on vacation. I do have to say, that “biologically improbable love child” line did have me cracking up this morning. How about we all start over and play nice. If we haven’t scared @Papa K away yet. Edited January 28, 2022 by ilovecornfields 2 2 Quote
ZuluZulu Posted January 28, 2022 Report Posted January 28, 2022 I pulled my comments, I was working late and grouchy last night. Thanks for the feedback! 1 1 Quote
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