Questions after my first familiarization flight

[Papa K]

Bought my plane 2 weeks ago (ferried home for me) and today I had my first familiarization flight.  This is my first time flying a complex airplane.  Here are my questions:

1.  When should the cowl flaps be closed - climb or cruise?

2.  What is the best practice to slow down during descent?  When cross country, when do you start to let down and slow down?  What MP and RPM do you use for descent? 

Here is what happened:  We stayed within 25 miles of the airport (1000' field elevation) and I climbed to 3500, 4500, then 5500 to practice climb and leveling.  When coming back to airport, we were 15 miles way at 5500'.  I could not get slowed down and pattern altitude in time.  I flew about a 6 mile downwind to get slow enough to put the gear down.  

3.  I've read a lot of "fly the numbers on approach", but -- what are the numbers?  Is there a combination of MP/RPM to target for downwind, base and approach airspeeds?  I know DA will have an effect, I am looking for a starting point.

 

We are going again on Friday and Monday to get the transition training complete (10 hr insurance requirement).  Are there any recommendations of the types of maneuvers and procedures I should ask my CFI to work on?   My plan is once I get the 10 hrs done, I want to fly at least 25 hours "solo" before I start instrument training.  Any suggestions for the 25 hours?

I do have to admit, once we got level at 5500 I did look at the airspeed indicator and all I saw was 185 - 190 MPH (about 155 KIAS) and said the the CFI, "How do I slow this down so we don't overspeed?"  He said, "You don't, its doing what its supposed to, besides you're the one who bought a Mooney."

Papa K

[ilovecornfields]

Mooneys don’t like to “go down and slow down” so you have to actually plan your descents. They also don’t like it when you come in too fast on final and force then to land.  The best way to learn is with someone who has a lot of time in Mooneys. MAPA has a PPP clinic which would be ideal for a first-time Mooney owner (looks like they’ll be in Wisconsin in September - https://mooneypilots.org/assets/pdf/ppp-mapa-sf-2022-schedule-compressed.pdf).

Until then, maybe some Midwest Mooney pilots can give you a recommendation for a local CFI who has time in Mooneys. They’re not “special” but they’re also pretty unforgiving of some techniques that other planes let you get away with.

I can’t help you with cowl flaps since I don’t have then but the first thing I did after getting my checkout was to start working on the commercial. The commercial maneuvers will help you get used to the plane. 

Don’t forget to preheat!

[Hank]

As a new owner, I quickly discovered that my Mooney would go down or slow down, but not both. Fifteen years later, I still can't slow down in the descent--she usually accelerates ~30 mphi. Just don't blow into the pattern at 180 mph!

What I did was plan to be at pattern altitude a few miles before the airport, then reduce power and slow down. A simple 500 fpm descent is easy to plan, then allow a few miles to slow down. 

Wish I could help you with the numbers, but my C and your J are too different. It'll be easy to find some power settings that work for you in your Performance Tables, and confirm them at various altitudes with your CFI. Someone will probably be along with actual power setting advice before too long.

[Vance Harral]

Cowl flaps should be operated based on observed cylinder head temperature.  It's not an "always open during this phase of flight, and always closed during that phase" thing.

Your normally-aspirated Lycoming is generally fine at any cylinder head temperature between 250-400 degrees.  Below 250 is too cool for the lead scavenging agent in the fuel to activate, and you're likely to get plug fouling.  Above 400 starts to affect engine longevity.  Halfway between those points is 325.  Consider that a soft target (don't agonize over it), and open/close cowl flaps as needed to stay around the target.

On a hot summer day, cowl flaps will need to stay open during the entire climb.  After leveling off for cruise, it may take quite a while for CHTs to cool down below 350 or so.  Don't close the cowl flaps before that happens.

On a cold winter day, I still have the cowl flaps open for takeoff (checklist item and force of habit), but if I look at CHTs early in the climb and see them under 300, I'll close the cowl flaps while still climbing.

I'm not always perfect at executing this strategy, and neither is anyone else.  Fortunately, it's not an especially critical item, at least not in 4-cylinder Mooney models.

 

[Matt Ward]

I fly an E but my go to is 19 squared for approach. That gets me to gear speed pretty well and then I just improvise as necessary.  

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Papa K said:

Bought my plane 2 weeks ago (ferried home for me) and today I had my first familiarization flight.  This is my first time flying a complex airplane.  Here are my questions:

1.  When should the cowl flaps be closed - climb or cruise?

2.  What is the best practice to slow down during descent?  When cross country, when do you start to let down and slow down?  What MP and RPM do you use for descent? 

Here is what happened:  We stayed within 25 miles of the airport (1000' field elevation) and I climbed to 3500, 4500, then 5500 to practice climb and leveling.  When coming back to airport, we were 15 miles way at 5500'.  I could not get slowed down and pattern altitude in time.  I flew about a 6 mile downwind to get slow enough to put the gear down.  

3.  I've read a lot of "fly the numbers on approach", but -- what are the numbers?  Is there a combination of MP/RPM to target for downwind, base and approach airspeeds?  I know DA will have an effect, I am looking for a starting point.

 

We are going again on Friday and Monday to get the transition training complete (10 hr insurance requirement).  Are there any recommendations of the types of maneuvers and procedures I should ask my CFI to work on?   My plan is once I get the 10 hrs done, I want to fly at least 25 hours "solo" before I start instrument training.  Any suggestions for the 25 hours?

I do have to admit, once we got level at 5500 I did look at the airspeed indicator and all I saw was 185 - 190 MPH (about 155 KIAS) and said the the CFI, "How do I slow this down so we don't overspeed?"  He said, "You don't, its doing what its supposed to, besides you're the one who bought a Mooney."

Papa K

1. Generally speaking cowl flaps are Open in climb and slow flight; closed in cruise.

2. Don't slow down during descent.  Make up some of the time lost during climb.  When VFR, a simple way of determining when to start a descent:  500 ft/min is best on the ears, so at 500 ft/min how long will it take to get to pattern altitude at that rate?  Every 1,000 feet will take 2 minutes, so multiply the number of 1,000 feet by 2 and that will be the number of minutes to reach pattern altitude and the time to start your descent.  Example: 6,500 feet to pattern altitude => start down 13 minutes before arrival at destination.  Regarding slowing down: Our engines can be cooled at a rate no greater than 50°F per minute.  CHTs are considered cool at 250°F.  In cruise they will be at about 350°F.  So you can lose 100°F during slow down and that should take 2 minutes.  Armed with that information, even without speed brakes, the J is simple to slow down to gear speed, and then flap speed, and then approach speed.  Training with a Mooney Specific Instructor is imperative in learning these procedures.  Your non Mooney specific flight instructor will not do you justice in transitioning to the Mooney.

3. Regarding flying the pattern: In knots nominally in no wind conditions for the J: it's 90 on downwind with gear and approach flaps, 80 on base with full flaps, and 75 on final.  If in MPH, then the above is nominally 100/90/80.

The file below works for the J.  I can't emphasize enough how important it is to get a Mooney specific Instructor for  your transition training.

Enjoy your new Airplane.

Traffic pattern M20F.docx

[ZuluZulu]

1. Have you read your POH?  It tells you when to use cowl flaps.  Good practical advice in this thread already, but your question suggests to me that you have not read the POH's instructions yet.  And why didn't your CFI go over this with you?

2. Is your instructor just along for the ride or is he actually teaching you something about the plane?  It's baffling to me that he's just sitting there and letting you struggle to slow it down.  Does he have any Mooney time?

[Bartman]

6 hours ago, Papa K said:

 

We are going again on Friday and Monday to get the transition training complete (10 hr insurance requirement).  Are there any recommendations of the types of maneuvers and procedures I should ask my CFI to work on?   My plan is once I get the 10 hrs done, I want to fly at least 25 hours "solo" before I start instrument training.  Any suggestions for the 25 hours?

 

Here are a few of the things my transition instructor made me learn before he released me. There is more, but as stated many times you will benefit most from an instructor who is experienced in your Mooney.

• POH review
• Checklists and GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS
• Slow flight and Approach stalls
• Short field landing on a true short field. Not simulated. It’s not the same.
• Fly the pattern “by the numbers” as stated above
• Landings with minimal energy. 
• You will float 100ft for every single knot of extra speed. 10kt = 1,000ft
• Don’t force it down or you will bounce and at risk of bounce and porpoise 
• He made me force it to land so that I would experience the bounce
• Long runway and you can save one bounce
• 2 bounces and you are in trouble. 3rd you are headed for prop strike
• You need to experience go-around with full flaps and landing trim

[Guest]

Can’t slow and descend at the same time is rubbish, the space shuttle was able to do it every time.  I find that closing the throttle is quite effective at slowing any airplane and helping it descend at the same time.  
 

Clarence

[Hank]

16 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Can’t slow and descend at the same time is rubbish, the space shuttle was able to do it every time.  I find that closing the throttle is quite effective at slowing any airplane and helping it descend at the same time.  
 

Clarence

I dunno. When I lost a magneto at 9500 msl and turned the key to the dead one troubleshooting, all engine noise stopped completely and the nose pitched down to maintain the airspeed that I was trimmed for. No slowdown at all,  and I can't reduce the throttle any more than that. 

[201er]

10 hours ago, Papa K said:

Bought my plane 2 weeks ago (ferried home for me) and today I had my first familiarization flight.  This is my first time flying a complex airplane.  Here are my questions

Aim ahead of where you want to be.

That means when you use the 2 mins per thousand formula @donkaye mentioned, you actually gotta add a couple spare minutes. First of all, your speed in the descent will be faster than in cruise so you will go farther in those descent minutes than usual. Secondly, you want the chance to level off a few miles ahead of time so you can start bleeding off speed after the descent. 

So, coming down from 7500’ to a 1000’ pattern altitude at 500fpm, I’d want to start down at about 16, not 13 mins out based on my time to destination at present cruise speed. Depends on wind though.

The other place you want to aim ahead is the runway. If you’re trying to land on the touchdown zone, aim for the numbers. If you’re trying to land on the numbers, aim for the displaced threshold. 

What to do in first 25 hours? Practice. Not just in the local pattern. Set out to go to all nearby airports and land at each one. It’s like a mini x-country to aviate, navigate, communicate. You get to practice everything and land on varying runways. 
 

Be sure to fly a lot with flight following and land at a bunch of delta, Charlie, and bravo airports before working on instrument. Having practice and skills working with ATC in advance helps you grasp and handle that aspect of instrument training.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Can’t slow and descend at the same time is rubbish, the space shuttle was able to do it every time.  I find that closing the throttle is quite effective at slowing any airplane and helping it descend at the same time.  
 

Clarence

Ha!  Same technique works great in jets.  It is amazing how power affects the dynamics of flight.  

Shall we open the "dreaded shock cooling", or "prop driving the engine" discussions?  

Edited January 27, 2022 by Mooneymite

[KLRDMD]

11 hours ago, Papa K said:

When cross country, when do you start to let down and slow down?  What do have to admit, once we got level at 5500 I did look at the airspeed indicator and all I saw was 185 - 190 MPH (about 155 KIAS) and said the the CFI, "How do I slow this down so we don't overspeed?"  He said, "You don't, its doing what its supposed to, besides you're the one who bought a Mooney."

It sounds like you desperately need a Mooney specific instructor, one that has at least hundereds or better yet thousands of hours in Mooneys. That doesn't seem to be the situation now.

[Jeremy K]

Not too far from you in central MN, My seems to be proven method for decent planning and speed planning is. 500 FPM descent with a mile to spare before pattern. I reduce MP at 1" per min to end up at 15 inches at pattern entry. My speed is right on and never struggle to slow down also I don't need to worry about rapid cooling of the cylinders. If I am doing a long final or flying an approach I may need to add power to maintain speed typically 17 inches to maintain 100 kts with gear and flaps out. I fly downwind at 100, base at 90, final at 80 till short final at 71. Also I fly an 87 J model 205. Also I agree with others find a CFI with Mooney experiance.

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Can’t slow and descend at the same time is rubbish, the space shuttle was able to do it every time.  I find that closing the throttle is quite effective at slowing any airplane and helping it descend at the same time.  
 

Clarence

Have you seen the speedbrakes on that thing? The rudder would split open and act like an adjustable speedbrake (kind of like the adjustable spoilers on gliders). I guess if the rudder split open on a Mooney that would probably slow you down as well.

I had a classmate in elementary school who’s father was a shuttle pilot. I remember he brought some tiles in once and let us heat them up with a blowtorch and then feel how the other side was still cool. 

[Greg Ellis]

13 hours ago, Papa K said:

I do have to admit, once we got level at 5500 I did look at the airspeed indicator and all I saw was 185 - 190 MPH (about 155 KIAS) and said the the CFI, "How do I slow this down so we don't overspeed?"  He said, "You don't, its doing what its supposed to, besides you're the one who bought a Mooney."

Papa K

I agree with what others have stated.  I would find another instructor who is more familiar with Mooneys.  This last statement shows that your instructor is just along for the ride it would seem and not there to teach you about your new airplane.  Also, you stated that this is the first complex aircraft you have flown.  Alot to take in.  New airplane to you and you being new to complex aircraft flying.  He seems to be basically saying that the airplane controls you.  Remember, you control the airplane.  Find someone that has a lot of hours in Mooneys and not someone who has flown in them but never really instructed someone from scratch in one.  It is one thing to take a non-Mooney instructor up for an IPC or a flight review in a very familiar to you airplane...it is quite another thing to get trained from scratch in a Mooney and also do complex work (not that terribly difficult) with an instructor who is just along for the ride.

[KB4]

14 hours ago, Papa K said:

fly the numbers on approach", but -- what are the numbers

Depends on what phase.  Highly recommended a MAPA PPP all the info you need.  They don’t permit republish so here is what you will get but can’t share numbers—sorry. 

[larryb]

Regarding descents, I plan for 6 miles per thousand feet. Easier to compute than minutes. I'll maintain cruise power setting in the descent. In the J, cruise power setting at altitude was full throttle. But you don't want full throttle once you get to a lower altitude. So every couple of minutes in the descent I'd back off the MP to match what I had in cruise. It's been a few years since I owned the J, but I think it was around 20" MP and 8.5 GPH fuel flow. 

[Greg Ellis]

You may be able to find some valuable information in this other thread on the topic.

 

[larryb]

Another thing to mention is the "Target EGT" method for leaning an NA engine in the climb. Note the EGT when taking off from a sea level airport. That is your Target EGT. As you climb, every couple thousand feet lean the mixture to maintain this Target EGT.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Ha!  Same technique works great in jets.  It is amazing how power affects the dynamics of flight.  

Shall we open the "dreaded shock cooling", or "prop driving the engine" discussions?  

Ooh, thanks!   I didn't have either of those on the controversy list.   For the OP, these are things for which there is significant disagreement among the righteous and heretics of Mooney piloting.   There's no need to pick a side, sometimes it's just fun to watch:
 

1. Touch and goes will kill you.
2. Levelling the airplane during gear swing with prop stand, engine lift point, tail stand, or straps on the engine mount.
3. ROP vs LOP
4. Using your bare hand to wipe the windscreen.
5. Whether to lock the baggage hatch or not.
6. Bladders vs patching/resealing tanks.
7. Take off with or without flaps.
8. OPP stuff, legal or not, etc.
9. Don't let the prop drive the engine.
10. Avoid shock cooling.

Edited January 27, 2022 by EricJ

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Jeremy!

 

Great post PK!

Everybody has a lot to learn, or share…

 

Thanks to Eric for posting the quirky repeat conversations that occur with each new wave of New Mooney Pilots…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Ooh, thanks!   I didn't have the either of those on the controversy list.   For the OP, these are things for which there is significant disagreement among the righteous and heretics of Mooney piloting.   There's no need to pick a side, sometimes it's just fun to watch:
 

1. Touch and goes will kill you.
2. Levelling the airplane during gear swing with prop stand, engine lift point, tail stand, or straps on the engine mount.
3. ROP vs LOP
4. Using your bare hand to wipe the windscreen.
5. Whether to lock the baggage hatch or not.
6. Bladders vs patching/resealing tanks.
7. Take off with or without flaps.
8. OPP stuff, legal or not, etc.
9. Don't let the prop drive the engine.
10. Avoid shock cooling.

Let’s not forget a really important one. Fat girls versus skinny girls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jaylw314]

16 hours ago, Papa K said:

Bought my plane 2 weeks ago (ferried home for me) and today I had my first familiarization flight.  This is my first time flying a complex airplane.  Here are my questions:

1.  When should the cowl flaps be closed - climb or cruise?

2.  What is the best practice to slow down during descent?  When cross country, when do you start to let down and slow down?  What MP and RPM do you use for descent? 

Here is what happened:  We stayed within 25 miles of the airport (1000' field elevation) and I climbed to 3500, 4500, then 5500 to practice climb and leveling.  When coming back to airport, we were 15 miles way at 5500'.  I could not get slowed down and pattern altitude in time.  I flew about a 6 mile downwind to get slow enough to put the gear down.  

3.  I've read a lot of "fly the numbers on approach", but -- what are the numbers?  Is there a combination of MP/RPM to target for downwind, base and approach airspeeds?  I know DA will have an effect, I am looking for a starting point.

1. Most checklists have you keep the cowl flaps open through climb and close them on cruise, which is appropriate.  If your CHT's are fine during climb, I'd suggest leaving the cowl flaps in trail (manual) or 1/2 (electric), since fully open puts a fair amount of stress on the hinge and can cause cracks there.
2. IIRC, the J has a (much?) higher Vne than the short-body Mooney's, so rules for some don't apply to all.  Likewise, there are arguments and controversy about how important it is to avoid "shock coolling".   Suffice it to say that there are some proponents of screaming down at Vne at full throttle, what you do with passengers on board should probably be your routine.  In many cases, pulling the RPM's back to 2000 and leaving the MP between 20-24" is enough to easily give you 500 fpm and no worries about shock cooling.  For max descent rate, your POH should mention that max descent rate is similar (almost 2,000 fpm) at Vne and at max gear speed with the gear out, but the latter is superior for control, comfort and safety.  That would have gotten you down to the airport easily
3. I think when people talk about "flying the numbers" in the pattern, they're mostly talking about airspeed, not the engine settings.  I think a common opinion is 100 KIAS on downwind, 90 on base, 80 on final, then your target speed over the numbers.  Your target speed is typically 65-70 when light, and 70-75 at max gross.  In the pattern with the prop full forward, your RPM defines your power, and a typical descent in the pattern might be done around 1800 RPM, but I honestly don't look and do it more by sound (you'll get to know what the prop sounds like around 1800 RPM) and outside visual cues.

[sleeper-319]

10 hours ago, Bartman said:

Short field landing on a true short field. Not simulated. It’s not the same.

Out of curiosity, what’s your definition of a “true” short field? And would you change that definition for a long body?