oldn0tded Posted December 31, 2011 Report Posted December 31, 2011 Hey guys and gurls, I'm a rookie here so be gentle. I've been flying for lotsa of years, been lusting for my own airplane for most of those. I'm getting ready to make the plunge. I have done quite a bit of research and it seems the Mooney for my mission and budget is an F model. It seems you get 90% of a J for 75% of the price. AND I do need the room. My question for the forum is: How big a deal is the twisted wing on the 67 models. It seems it costs a few knots, and it was dropped pretty quick. So, what's the real story??? Thanks in advance, Old Not Dead Quote
gregwatts Posted December 31, 2011 Report Posted December 31, 2011 Not a big deal. In 71, they tried a slightly different tail....no better, no worse.....just different. There are more 67 F models out there than any other year they were produced. I personally like the 76 F model .........an almost J model.....minus about 10 kts. Since you have your mission defined, now establish your budget. IMHO you are better off buying the plane that has everything you want. The market is in your favor, so find the plane you want and negotiate. A lot of the ads you see now have unrealistic asking prices, but don't let that keep you from making a call. Good luck! Quote
garytex Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 I just bought one with lots of SWTA mods, runs 155 kt. But even the un modded ones mostly run that fast. See the F report on the MAPA site. I love mine. Gary Quote
Shadrach Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 I have a clean original 67F with a twist wing. I am of the opinion that this was one of Mooneys better years. In my mind, this airplane really is a rather pure iteration of Al's notion of what an AC should be, even though he was not involved with the company at that time. It is relatively light, adequatly powered, efficient, with good payload and no-nonsense systems. People will say I'm biased and maybe I am. However, it is a very easy airplane to live with and yields more on less (performace wise) than just about any other certified machine I've flown. Mine is box stock and turns 150kts easily and consistantly. Most recent 4 way speed run was 2 weeks ago. 35Gals plus me 185lbs and copilot 122lbs so we were <2300lbs or 440 + under MGW. It was a high pressure day (30.08). OAT 22DF 5500ft WOTRAO ~28.5 inches 2500RPM 30LOP 150.5 Kts Hottest CHT 319 100ROP 156.5KTS Hottest CHT 346 I think the twist wing did little to slow the bird down, I also think it also does little to improve it's already very manageable stall charecteristics.... Quote
kilobravo3 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 Gary...I'm interested in your comment. I recently purchased a 67F, and I'm only seeing true airspeeds in the 140-145 range. I do have the modified cowl (I believe by SWTA). I'm starting to wonder if I'm having a problem. She just came out of annual with a clean bill of health. I do have the 3-bladed prop which I know costs me a couple of knots, but certainly not 10-15. Quote
Shadrach Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 KB3, Speed robbing issues stack up more easily than they are removed. 1) The 3 blade form what I hear from those who've done the conversion (and then back) is more like 4 to 5kts. 2) How are you running it as in power settings? 3) When is the last time you had the rigging checked. Just because the ball is centered does not mean it's well rigged. 4) have you physically inspected gear doors during a gear swing? I was shocked at one of the shops on the field let slide. The door was hanging up because the rod ends had not been properly lubed and were sticking. This was the initial inspiration for doing Owner assisted annuals. 5) Prop SMOH? Last time it was serviced? 6) Engine SMOH? Quote
kilobravo3 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 Shadrach, Thanks for the response. I'm typically running WOT and 2500 RPM (verified with a SureTach digital tachometer), and usally 75-100 ROP (I don't have an engine monitor yet to run LOP). According to the logs, the rigging was checked about 3 years ago, but that was before I owned the airplane so I'm not sure how it was done. The engine has about 1200 SMOH, and the prop (3 blade Hartzell) was put on about 10 years and 700 hours ago. I have not physically looked at the gear doors, and I am also going to check to make sure my step is properly retracting. Quote
DaV8or Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 I don't think the twisted wing is much, if any penalty in speed. One down side is though, you can't put the spiffy looking 231 style wing tips on. The twisted wing Fs are the only metal Mooneys that can't have them. Something to consider if you're lusting after the wing tips. Quote
Lood Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 Quote: kilobravo3 Gary...I'm interested in your comment. I recently purchased a 67F, and I'm only seeing true airspeeds in the 140-145 range. I do have the modified cowl (I believe by SWTA). I'm starting to wonder if I'm having a problem. She just came out of annual with a clean bill of health. I do have the 3-bladed prop which I know costs me a couple of knots, but certainly not 10-15. Quote
kilobravo3 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 Lood...it will be interesting to hear if your new engine/prop make a difference....keep us posted. Quote
KSMooniac Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 140 KTAS at a reasonable power stetting is much more common with stock F's. I believe there is also considerable variation from one plane to another in terms of speed due to construction "quality" for lack of a better explanation. Rigging and airframe alignment are critical, and I think some of this stuff can't really be measured, yet there are "fast" ones and "slow" ones. Quote
garytex Posted January 3, 2012 Report Posted January 3, 2012 The 155 kts was a 4 way GPS speed run average. 7500 ft., WOT, Ram open, 2500 rpm, 50 deg rich of peak, 10.3 GPH, OAT24 deg C, 400lbs Pax, 1/2 fuel. The cowl looks like a 201 cowl with just a tiniest little bit more protruberant chin, and there are wing and tail filets, and every gap that doesn't sell jeans is sealed. One piece belly pan. And the brakes are rotated. I can't claim any credit for any of this, I just bought what the gods of chance offered that was close and handy. I don't think the engine is particularly strong, I think I just got airframe lucky and mod lucky. Quote
danb35 Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Quote: kilobravo3 I'm typically running WOT and 2500 RPM (verified with a SureTach digital tachometer), and usally 75-100 ROP (I don't have an engine monitor yet to run LOP). Quote
fantom Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Quote: KSMooniac ....I believe there is also considerable variation from one plane to another in terms of speed due to construction "quality" for lack of a better explanation.... Quote
oldn0tded Posted January 4, 2012 Author Report Posted January 4, 2012 Just thinkin' out loud guys. If the +/- 3 knots is accepted as fact, and you take the max of 6 knot variation. Then it would be a 4% difference at the lower 140kt range, less at the high end. Is it possible this could be instrument +/- tolerances. Simple speedo error????? Even GPS's have plus and minus tolerances. Just saying... Quote
fantom Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 That 5 or 6 knot variance was on 1990's vintage J's, as I recall. What one chooses to accept as fact has much to do with what one want's to believe....in many most cases ;-) Quote
DaV8or Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Quote: fantom Engineers and test pilots at the Mooney factory have told me that new planes, set up and flown the same way show a 6 knot variance +/- 3 knows with no known explanation other than some are faster than others. Some owners then spend thousands of bucks searching for those missing several knots Quote
rbridges Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Even modern vehicles have variances. I've read car and motorcycle magazines for years. You'll see differences in 0-60, quarter mile and top end speeds for the same vehicle. Even dyno readings can change from article to article. They try to standardize it based upon certain temps and humidity settings, but it tells me that several things, including internal and external factors, can contribute to the difference. Quote
KSMooniac Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Quote: fantom Some owners then spend thousands of bucks searching for those missing several knots Quote
Hank Posted January 4, 2012 Report Posted January 4, 2012 Rob is right. Even speedometer tolerances are [i think] 6-7% of the maximum reading. So my Honda is good for ± 8 mph [6% of 140 mph], and sure enough, according to the radar traps set around construction sites to show your speed, when indicating 60 it's actually 56 . . . I don't know of a convenient way to test my AI, but it passed the pitot-static check last fall. May have to do a GPS test run, record power settings, Altitude & Altimeter and OAT then crunch some numbers. Quote
MARZ Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 Quote: Hank Rob is right. Even speedometer tolerances are [i think] 6-7% of the maximum reading. So my Honda is good for ± 8 mph [6% of 140 mph], and sure enough, according to the radar traps set around construction sites to show your speed, when indicating 60 it's actually 56 . . . I don't know of a convenient way to test my AI, but it passed the pitot-static check last fall. May have to do a GPS test run, record power settings, Altitude & Altimeter and OAT then crunch some numbers. Quote
Shadrach Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 Quote: maropers I say we all get together and fly a formation - then at the prescibed time read off the airspeed!!! whadda ya say ? Quote
MARZ Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 Did I tell you it's going to be in the 70's today in Houston????? Quote
Shadrach Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 Quote: maropers Did I tell you it's going to be in the 70's today in Houston????? Quote
Hank Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 Let's all meet in the middle between Tejas and the SFRA. How about the WV/KY/OH Tri-State area???? Ya'll go on, I'll bring up the rear. It'll only be 60º here today, cooling into the 50's for the weekend. Quote
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